Female privilege?

Started by lkanneg, Sep 20, 2005, 03:07 AM

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The Biscuit Queen

How about if you run your husband over 5 times with his mercades and his daughter in the car, you get custody of your dead husband's two sons.

Oh year, we aren't privilaged  :roll: .
he Biscuit Queen
www.thebiscuitqueen.blogspot.com

There are always two extremes....the truth lies in the middle.

lkanneg

Quote from: "The Biscuit Queen"
She needs to look at "can the majority of women....."

She says she will research a lot of things. It will be interesting to see where she gets the data from.

Ikanneg, please if you don't mind cite the links you get your data from? Shouldn't be a big deal if you open two browsers and cut and paste as you go along.


No prob.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

Galt

Quote from: "The Biscuit Queen"
How about if you run your husband over 5 times with his mercades and his daughter in the car, you get custody of your dead husband's two sons.


What I think is odd is that women's groups sometimes come out in support of women like this.

Another big one was Elizabeth Broderick in San Diego.  The husband was divorced from her, paying her $20,000 per month or so in alimony and had GIVEN her a nice house and car.  She couldn't stand it that he married his secretary, so she stole a key to his house, snuck in one night and shot him and his new wife to death in their sleep.  And friends of the couple had said that they fully understood why he divorced her - she was becoming increasingly demanding and downright brutal to him, including burning all of his clothes in the yard once after an argument.  He just wanted to get away from her.

And some women's groups came out on her side!  I just find that unbelievable.

lkanneg

Quote from: "AlMartin"
Serious question;

Where you are employed, specifically your department, how many women and how many men?

Al


My department:

Boss = Director,  Manufacturing MALE
His direct reports:
Me = Process Engineer FEMALE (no direct reports)
S  = Process Engineer MALE (no direct reports)
H = Maintenance Coordinator MALE (no direct reports)
M = Manager, Downstream Manufacturing MALE (4 direct reports)
C = Manager, Upstream Manufacturing MALE (2 direct reports)

M's direct reports:
C2 = First shift supervisor MALE (10 direct reports, 5 female)
D = Second shift supervisor MALE (5 direct reports, 2 female)
P = Third shift supervisor MALE (3 direct reports, 1 female)
S2 = Support Ops supervisor MALE (4 direct reports, 3 female)

C's direct reports:
K = First shift supervisor FEMALE (4 direct reports, 0 female)
P2 = Second/Third shift supervisor MALE (4 direct reports, 1 female)

So, female total in department = 14/32 = 44%

(hopefully the above is arithmetic-error-free)
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

TestSubject

Quote from: "Valkyrie on Counter-Strike"
I broke my finger.  Most of their fan base is 15-year-old girls and the guys behind us were moshing, knocking them over, so I turned around and slugged one of them.


Now, what happened to her?  Not only did it slide, people congratulated her for it.

Now, when I punch a woman in the face for knocking over a teenage boy at a concert, what will happen to me?

You get the picture?  This shit gets really old.

Sir Percy

Some additions:

Can you walk into the opposite sex's toilets, use a cubicle, and walk out without being apprehended and demands made on you to explain why you should not be arrested for being a pervert?

Would you expect anyone in the toilet block to scream at your presence, as though you were a green alien with two heads and six sets of yellow fangs, or would you expect them to 'understand' that your own toilets are always so crowded and that they should make allowances for you and not be silly?

Can you wear the clothes of the other sex and be confident that no one would take any notice, or would you be constrained by the greater likelihood of someone from the opposite sex calling the police because you were 'being offensive'?

Can you hit a stranger in a bar in the face and expect no police charges of assault and battery because of your gender?

Can you murder your children and expect a greater than even chance of public sympathy?

Can you wear your underwear as outerwear and have people praise you for your fashion statement? (Superman excepted)

Can you wear your underwear and nothing else in public and feel that you would get support from your own sex persons, even strangers, if you blamed the opposite sex for 'looking' at you 'that' way and being 'perverts' for doing so?

Can you pick up a crying child in the street and expect support, rather than demands that you 'put the child down and step away'!?

Can you place a crying child on your knee in comfort as a child-care worker without a report write-up labelling you as a suspicious person?
vil, like misery, is Protean, and never greater than when committed in the name of 'right'. To commit evil when they are convinced they are doing 'good', is one of the greatest of pleasures known to a feminist.

lkanneg

Quote from: "The Biscuit Queen"
How about if you run your husband over 5 times with his mercades and his daughter in the car, you get custody of your dead husband's two sons.

Oh year, we aren't privilaged  :roll: .


See other thread.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

realman

Ikanneg, can you give an example of how men manipulate women with sex? I don't mean manipulation through "pillow talk" to get sex, I mean using the promise of sex, or the threat of witholding sex, as an incentive or rewards/punishment system (or at least, some means of using sex itself to manipulate another person).

For example, if a man you're with routinely puts an end to all sexual relations whenever he doesn't get his way, are you likely to end up wlaking on eggshells around him and giving him whatever he wants just to maintain access to sex?

Likewise, would the threat of witholding sex, or promise of future sex, have any impact on your course of action because of the relative availability of sex to you?

Quiet frankly I think any reasonably decent looking woman under 50, appraching men around her own age, would probably be able to more easily get sex than a better-than-average looking 20-something guy hitting on women in his age group. Obviously under these conditions, few women are ever going to be swayed too much by the giving or witholding of sex by a man.

jaketk

Quote from: "Galt"
Quote from: "The Biscuit Queen"
How about if you run your husband over 5 times with his mercades and his daughter in the car, you get custody of your dead husband's two sons.


What I think is odd is that women's groups sometimes come out in support of women like this.

Another big one was Elizabeth Broderick in San Diego.  The husband was divorced from her, paying her $20,000 per month or so in alimony and had GIVEN her a nice house and car.  She couldn't stand it that he married his secretary, so she stole a key to his house, snuck in one night and shot him and his new wife to death in their sleep.  And friends of the couple had said that they fully understood why he divorced her - she was becoming increasingly demanding and downright brutal to him, including burning all of his clothes in the yard once after an argument.  He just wanted to get away from her.

And some women's groups came out on her side!  I just find that unbelievable.


and they made two tv movies about her, she was showcased on oprah as a heroine, and she's continuously mentioned by NOW at least once a year.

lkanneg

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
PMS - big excuse for everything from unprofessional behavior to murder.


(sigh) I don't get PMS, at least, I don't experience emotional symptoms...so no benefits for me there.  Women who use this excuse may obtain some benefits from it, but I wouldn't consider it to be overall a benefit, because they are also usually held in deep contempt while being handed the benefit, which precludes them from being able to obtain more important benefits, those which are associated with actually being respected by others.  But that's just my opinion.  I've never heard of it as an excuse for murder, though I have heard of postpartum depression and PMDD as excuses for murder.  

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
Postpartum Depression - Andrea Yates Drowned her five kids.  Russel Yates gets beat up in the press for giving her children.  Andrea Yates gets sympathy and a retrial.


Actually knew someone who suffered from postpartum psychosis.  It's not a joke or a lie; it's a real, measurable psychiatric disorder.  If a woman kills someone(s) because of it, she needs to be locked up for her own safety and the safety of others and given treatment ASAP, just like anybody else with a dangerous psychiatric disorder.  Andrea Yates got life in prison, to the best of my knowledge--is that incorrect?

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
You will be presumed to be the primary caregiver in the event of a divorce - and sometimes even with evidence to the contrary.


I don't know about that from personal experience, but it sounds like a reasonable assertion.  I will research it.  I WILL, but now my list of research is getting very, very long.  So it may take a little while...sorry..!

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
The "Tender Years" doctrine.


I don't know what that is, sorry?

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
Immunity from ANY type of draft, even for non-military service.


This is true, though it's not a privilege I want and if I had the power, I'd change it right now.  I am active on the subject.

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
Girl pushups, red tees, and so on.


Girl pushups don't exist in the modern Army, though I can't speak for other branches, so no privilege there.  Sex-segregated sports are more of a mixed blessing than a privilege--they give women a lot more chances to compete, but they also reduce the respect women athletes are held in.  Sort of a privilege...sort of not.

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
VAWA allows you to go out and file a restraining order on a spouse with no proff, and on merely the claim of "I'm afraid."

This order will be enforced draconianly, even if he hasn't been served with it - i.e. he is unaware of it.

This order can be used to dispossess him of property during a divorce, at at the end, your residence will be confiirmed - judges tend to preserve the status quo.  This will also go hand in hand with custody.

Even if you are shown to have gotten this under false pretenses, you will not be prosecuted for it.

Not only that, but you will be able to show it as evidence of possible abuse to get custody, et al.

And not only that, the fact that it was dismissed for no cause will be irrelevant if HE wants to bring it up.


Honest question here...isn't all the above in VAWA gender-neutral?  By law, couldn't my husband do all that to me too?  Not that either of us would, but couldn't he?

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
Men are routinely told "Keep in in your pants" in the most sneering and derisive tone possible.  However, if we get an abstinence program going, no matter how "affrming" it is, that urges females to keep their skirts down, it will be jeered at and mocked.


No, I can't agree with this one.  Women are routinely told to "keep your legs closed" in the most sneering and derisive tone possible.  Abstinence programs do not, in my experience of them, urge girls to be *more* abstinent than boys.

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
We are urged with a full chorus of violins that women should be allowed abortions on demand, because "why should one mistake ruin a young girl's life?"  even though adoption is readily available, and the supply of babies can't keep up with the demand.  On the other hand, we think nothing of "Ruining a young man's life" even when he is an underage boy seduced by an older woman.


I support abortion on demand.  However, I don't support forcing a man to pay for a child that he didn't want born in the first place, and if someone would put forth a law giving men a legal out, I'd support it (is anybody?  because I've never seen anything like that even suggested by my gov't officials).  I think that the "privilege" of choice about birth is neatly counteracted by the "non-privilege" of being the one giving birth...net gain = zero for women.  

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
If you seduce your 16 year old neighbor who mows your lawn, you'll get a misdemeanor rap, probation, and won't register as a sex offender.


This is totally unfair, and women *are* privileged this way, because when the same thing happens and the genders are reversed, the man is utterly in danger of far harsher penalties.  This needs to go and I loudly support the same treatment of both sexes.  

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
Fun with torquing the system:  Have your lawyer call up the Human Resorces department and suggest that they guy who you are competing with for the promotion has sexually harassed you.  Watch what happens, even with no proof.


:( I have watched this happen twice, with completely opposite results.  Sorry, this is in no way a guaranteed female privilege.  I must disagree with you here.

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
More fun with Torquing the system!  Watch the next "Cops!" marathon.  See the police officer pull up to the house.  See the guy outside with a fat lip.  See the woman inside without a mark on her tearfully claim he hit her - shoved her - held her - or something.  Watch her be taken at her word.  Watch him be badgered.  Watch him get cuffed and hauled away.  Now, you try it - next time you and your hubby have an argument, pull out this trump and have fun.  (Or maybe it never gets that far and you get your way because he knows that is the likely result)


This is not what happens in my ex-husband's county (he's a cop).  Seriously, it isn't.  In his county, this "female privilege" does not exist.

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
Go to the store.  Pick up a few groceries.  Dash in front of the man with the full cart going up to the checkout. Give a pasted on smile and an insincere "Sorry!" but don't give up your place.  See if he says squat to you (Okay - don't do it with me, but with most guys...)


:evil: Women have done this to me so many times I've lost count.  If this is a female privilege, it's one they exercise against other females too.  If you know any snappy comebacks for ladies who do this (that won't get me arrested) please pass them on.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

The Gonzman

Quote
(sigh) I don't get PMS, at least, I don't experience emotional symptoms...so no benefits for me there.  Women who use this excuse may obtain some benefits from it, but I wouldn't consider it to be overall a benefit, because they are also usually held in deep contempt while being handed the benefit, which precludes them from being able to obtain more important benefits, those which are associated with actually being respected by others.  But that's just my opinion.  I've never heard of it as an excuse for murder, though I have heard of postpartum depression and PMDD as excuses for murder.  


The fact remains it is often a free pass for behavior which would never be excused in men.

Quote
Actually knew someone who suffered from postpartum psychosis.  It's not a joke or a lie; it's a real, measurable psychiatric disorder.  If a woman kills someone(s) because of it, she needs to be locked up for her own safety and the safety of others and given treatment ASAP, just like anybody else with a dangerous psychiatric disorder.  Andrea Yates got life in prison, to the best of my knowledge--is that incorrect?


http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/yates/

Her conviction got overturned.  The point of it all is that her, like Susan Smith, get understanding.  Russell Yates - my God.  Google him, and browse.  I mean, He got her help, he supported his family - and somehow it got twisted around in a lot of places like it was his fault.

Man kills his kids - is there hand-wringing, pleas for understanding - or calls for a fair trial followed by a first-class lynching?

Quote
I don't know about that from personal experience, but it sounds like a reasonable assertion.  I will research it.  I WILL, but now my list of research is getting very, very long.  So it may take a little while...sorry..!


I've seen it happen time and again in divorce cases.  Woman claims she is the primary caregiver and is taken at her word.  Man claims it, and evidence is required.  And it happened to me - despite my diary and documentation that I was the primary caregiver for my son, not to mention witnesses - INCLUDING HER MOTHER - it was dismissed in favor of her assertion that "Unh-uh- Me! It was me!"

Quote
I don't know what that is, sorry?


That children below a certain age belong with their mother.

Quote
Girl pushups don't exist in the modern Army, though I can't speak for other branches, so no privilege there.  Sex-segregated sports are more of a mixed blessing than a privilege--they give women a lot more chances to compete, but they also reduce the respect women athletes are held in.  Sort of a privilege...sort of not.


Well, they did in mine.  It's not so much that they exist that is the problem - the sexual dimorphism of the human species is empirically observable.  It's the insistance that the lower achievement is AS GOOD that get's annoying, the more so when it is used for job fitness tests.

Quote
Honest question here...isn't all the above in VAWA gender-neutral?  By law, couldn't my husband do all that to me too?  Not that either of us would, but couldn't he?


Hehehe.  There's the law as written, and the law as applied.  The day a strapping man such as myself could walk into a court and seek an ex-parte restraining order because I claimed "fear" of a five and a half foot tall one hundred and twenty pound woman would be a historical one indeed.

Look up "Duluth Model."

Quote
No, I can't agree with this one.  Women are routinely told to "keep your legs closed" in the most sneering and derisive tone possible.  Abstinence programs do not, in my experience of them, urge girls to be *more* abstinent than boys.


Let's rephrase then - suppose a young woman sought an abortion or to give a baby up for adoption and was told, "No, you're young and healthy, you can work - you can have/keep this baby and support it.  You should've kept your skirts down."

Quote
I support abortion on demand.  However, I don't support forcing a man to pay for a child that he didn't want born in the first place, and if someone would put forth a law giving men a legal out, I'd support it (is anybody?  because I've never seen anything like that even suggested by my gov't officials).  I think that the "privilege" of choice about birth is neatly counteracted by the "non-privilege" of being the one giving birth...net gain = zero for women.  


That type of law is one I often use for shock value, but no - I think children have a right to their parents, and parents a right to their children.   What is a true crock of shit as far as child support goes is that a man who writes a check every week and has jack and shit to do with his kids is counted by society and the law a better father than one who is broke but engaged in their lives - and the law then works on disengaging that father from their lives via a host of punative means.  Miss a few CS payments - no matter what the reason - and watch a life go to hell.

Deny visitation, though?  Deny active participation by the father into the child's life?  You can go through over a year of runaround before you even get a hearing - on your own dime, where a CS action is "on the county" - and then you're likely to get a wink and a nod, and a worthless "That's not what you should be doing."  Visitation is a court order.  Defiance of it is contempt, but it is just not enforced.

As far as bearing children, I have to say that there are few mothers I know who considered it a burden.  And just for reference, I asked every Mother in my SCA group if they would have traded carrying and bearing any of their kids with their husbands - all answered in the negative once they realized my question was serious.

Quote
:( I have watched this happen twice, with completely opposite results.  Sorry, this is in no way a guaranteed female privilege.  I must disagree with you here.


It may not be foolproof - but it does work a lot; and something a man would be laughed at for even trying in all but the most egregious examples of female behavior.

Quote
This is not what happens in my ex-husband's county (he's a cop).  Seriously, it isn't.  In his county, this "female privilege" does not exist.


That's one county.  Like I said, the whole series "Cops" is my reference.  

Quote
:evil: Women have done this to me so many times I've lost count.  If this is a female privilege, it's one they exercise against other females too.  If you know any snappy comebacks for ladies who do this (that won't get me arrested) please pass them on.


Well, you could get away with a snappy comeback.

Well, I do get away with it*, but I get dirty looks for loudly calling her "Princess" and being a sarcastic asshole, and suggestions I have no manners for not letting her treat me like a doormat.  But I really don't care what people think of me in that respect, so my response is highly atypical and not socially accepted behavior.

-------------------------------------
*I mean seriously, WTF are they gonna do?  If they locked up people for being shitheads, we wouldn't have the outside population and infrastructure to support the jail system.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

lkanneg

Quote from: "neonsamurai"
Quote
I do hear a lot about female privilege on this board, and periodically also how it's not even realized by some women because they can't see the forest for the trees or words to that effect.


Well, one is that it was your choice to join the army. To my knowledge women cannot be conscripted into the army, or have to do any kind of national service. I don't think women are allowed to be front line troops, or that there are any units made up entirely of female soldiers either..


The draft is an example of male oppression (imo).  As far as women being allowed in the front line troops...no,  they aren't...sort of...at least in Iraq, that's not really working out too well.  Women are getting into combat all the time, whether anyone wants them to or not.  Women aren't allowed to be trained for and classified as participating in certain military jobs that--I think the criteria is--expose them to a strong likelihood of physical contact or face-to-face contact with the enemy.  US military women in Iraq are getting a lot more physical and face-to-face enemy contact than anybody anticipated, though.

Quote from: "neonsamurai"
Also, as you've mentioned women don't have to reach the same level of physical accomplishment to get through the army training. In the UK I believe that this also goes for the police and fire service. Like the army, you couldn't have a team of fire fighters made up entirely of women, as they are less physically able, but get the same pay..


Here, police departments vary--some have differing standards for females, some don't.  I don't know if that's true for fire departments or not.  One thing to keep in mind, though--there are a fair number of women who *do* meet the male physical standard in all three professions (military, police, firefighter).  They just don't get credit for it.

Quote from: "neonsamurai"
Women get more maternity leave than men get for paternity leave and in the UK are promoted faster than men in most sectors. In fact in the business sector that I work in, female managers get paid more!.


That's definitely specific to the UK re the parental leave, or at least, it's not like that in the US.  There is no such thing as "maternity leave;" it's  "parental leave," and it isn't gender-specific.  It's also unpaid, 12 weeks long, and applies only to companies with 50 or more employees.  I don't know how it works out with male/female pay in management in business here.  Theoretically, it's equal.  Gender-focus groups on both sides spend a lot of time chiming in about how it isn't, favoring whatever the opposite gender of their interest group is.  So it's hard to say.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

The Biscuit Queen

Quote
That's definitely specific to the UK re the parental leave, or at least, it's not like that in the US. There is no such thing as "maternity leave;" it's "parental leave," and it isn't gender-specific. It's also unpaid, 12 weeks long, and applies only to companies with 50 or more employees. I don't know how it works out with male/female pay in management in business here. Theoretically, it's equal. Gender-focus groups on both sides spend a lot of time chiming in about how it isn't, favoring whatever the opposite gender of their interest group is. So it's hard to say.


That is the minimum. Companies can and do offer paid leave for mothers, and are required by law to allow medical leave for mothers for complications, as long as a doctor signs his name to the reason. (my issue here is that pregnancy is a choice, not an illness.)
he Biscuit Queen
www.thebiscuitqueen.blogspot.com

There are always two extremes....the truth lies in the middle.

lkanneg

Quote from: "The Biscuit Queen"
Quote
That's definitely specific to the UK re the parental leave, or at least, it's not like that in the US. There is no such thing as "maternity leave;" it's "parental leave," and it isn't gender-specific. It's also unpaid, 12 weeks long, and applies only to companies with 50 or more employees. I don't know how it works out with male/female pay in management in business here. Theoretically, it's equal. Gender-focus groups on both sides spend a lot of time chiming in about how it isn't, favoring whatever the opposite gender of their interest group is. So it's hard to say.


That is the minimum. Companies can and do offer paid leave for mothers, and are required by law to allow medical leave for mothers for complications, as long as a doctor signs his name to the reason. (my issue here is that pregnancy is a choice, not an illness.)


I don't think I'm quite getting your point...are you saying that because a woman chooses to get pregnant, she shouldn't be given paid medical leave if her pregnancy renders her incapable of working?
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

Mr Benn

Quote from: "lkanneg"

I don't think I'm quite getting your point...are you saying that because a woman chooses to get pregnant, she shouldn't be given paid medical leave if her pregnancy renders her incapable of working?


Who should pay for this if it is a small business?
ww.CoolTools4Men.com

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