Female privilege?

Started by lkanneg, Sep 20, 2005, 03:07 AM

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lkanneg

Hi everyone,

I do hear a lot about female privilege on this board, and periodically also how it's not even realized by some women because they can't see the forest for the trees or words to that effect.

I'm not sure which problem I'm having, but I am having an extremely hard time coming up with instances in my life where I was privileged to be a woman.  Is it because I simply can't see it?  Mind, I am talking about *my* life in particular.  So far, all I have managed to come up with is two, and neither of them were things I would have minded giving up.  They are:

1.  The men I have dated have always offered to pay for our dates.
2.  When I was in the Army I didn't have to meet the same physical standards on the biannual PT test as male soldiers on two of the three events.

Everything else that I can think of has either been a gender-neutral event in my life or the fact that I was female had a negative influence.  However, I'm genuinely curious if this is simply because I didn't notice at the time how being female smoothed my path.  The majority of the "female privileges" people have listed elsewhere on this forum haven't ever benefitted me, so I was wondering if there were more that hadn't really been discussed?
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

Galt

The female/feminist privilege checklist:

1. Do you experience other people paying for your dates, or occasionally even picking up the tab in non-romantic settings? Or paying for vacations when the relationship moves along?

2. Do you occasionally experience subservient gestures by the opposite sex(opening doors, giving up a seat in the bus, standing up when you come in the room)?

3. Are you able to simply pursue what you are interested in at university without much societal pressure on "breadwinning" - although you could also take that route if it interests you?

4.a. Have you had to register for selective service? Would you be ripped out of your life and forced to defend your country in time of attack or national emergency? Can you demand strength and full participation in society, but then get out of this obligation by pretending to be weak with no influence over society (only when it suits you)?

4.b. Can you come up with any and every excuse to get out of this without being laughed at ("No one should be drafted" - when you would be the first to cower in the corner and demand that someone do something if China & Russia combined and attacked full force - and "If men start wars ..." when women are the majority of voters and the expression is more likely "Men are SENT in wars ..." - exactly what you're trying to get out of - and sometimes sent by M. Thatcher, G. Meir, I. Gandhi, B. Bhutto and others)

5. Will you statistically get a much lighter sentence for exactly the same offense if you commit a crime?

6. Are you able to take on a job or choose a career route that is only capable of supporting yourself, with no thought to preparing yourself to also support a spouse/children, although you are also free to choose a more difficult career that will bring you more money? Do you not have much pressure on you with regard to this?

7. If you are in a committed relationship, do you have much greater flexibility to choose whether you want to work or simply stay at home (even without kids)?

8. Will you be called an unemployed loser if you decide to be a homemaker?

9. If you have a flat tire on the road, if someone is harassing you in a public place, if an animal attacks you, or if you are lost, will someone be much, much more likely to help you?

10. Are people generally much nicer to you in public? Are you sometimes given privileged treatment?

11. Are you much more capable of "marrying up" - enjoying the money and status that comes with this?

12. Are you statistically much more likely to be given money in a divorce - sometimes huge amounts - even if your behavior caused the divorce (e.g. affair) and even if you didn't work for the money?

13. If you slap a person - or even knock someone's tooth out throwing your Aunt Selma's Christmas mug at that person - is it much more likely to just be viewed as cute, understandable or not a problem?

14. Do you statistically live much longer - possibly due to less stress on you with regard to breadwinning, providing protection, being responsible, not having society viewing you as "expendable" or viewing your problems as not being important?

15. Do you have much more money spent on your health concerns in reality (e.g. 5 times as much on breast cancer as on prostate cancer - although they have roughly the same death rates) while you simultaneously claim that more has to be done for you?

16. Are you much less likely to be homeless? Is more offered to you by society when you are in this position?

17. Is there far less scorn and pressure on you by society when you are an irresponsible doofus? Are your default rates for payment of child support roughly twice those of the other gender, while you simultaneously complain about the other gender not paying?

18. Has whining about and hating the other gender actually been made into a course of studies in college (women's studies) - as opposed to the true, neutral, unbiased study of this topic - which is simply anthropology?

19. Do you have full opportunity to do anything you want in life - become a doctor, a lawyer, start a business - while simultaneously using the fact that many of your gender don't CHOOSE themselves to do these things as an argument to try to gain even more advantages? Do you get affirmative action because many of your gender don't choose to do these things, and thus the numbers don't "come out right"?

20. Can you manipulate the other gender with sex in some cases to get what you want? Can you pretend like you don't even know what anyone is talking about on this topic?

21. Can you manipulate using old notions of men protecting and deferring to women when it comes in handy?

22. Can you effectively manipulate by playing the victim? Do tears work sometimes?

23. Can you get sympathy if you don't work and don't have children by listing all the household work (hmm ... Oprah really does get high ratings, though) while simultaneously being able to bear the cognitive dissonance of calling your sister's husband who stays home a worthless bum that she ought to leave?

24. Can you "mix and match" traditional and progressive roles - finding just the right mix to get what you want? Can you be a "traditional wife" - enjoying the positive features of that (like not having to work) - while simultaneously being a progressive feminist when THAT gets you advantages? Or having a career while simultaneously using traditional chivalry and male deference to your advantage?

25. Can you constantly say "that's just typical" and "it doesn't surprise me a bit" and make a lemon face if you are a parent-in-law? Is near-universal contempt by both genders for your behavior hidden to a much greater extent?

26. Can almost any remark by your partner be construed as verbal abuse if you want sympathy, but the meanest, nastiest, most humiliating things that you can say simply involve "speaking your mind" and "some people just don't want to hear the truth"?

27. Can you use the fact that gender roles were differentiated long ago - with different advantages/disadvantages for both genders - to try to induce guilt today in people who had absolutely no connection with any of that? Can you say that you have been discriminated against for thousands of years - when you're only 20 years old - with a straight face? Can you even make things up about history and no one will really check or dare call you on it?

28. Can you propagate myths and outright lies ("Superbowl/domestic violence hoax", "rule of thumb", 1/4 rape statistic, intentional misconstrual of pay figures, and many more) and be given a "pass" - without more rigor being demanded?

29. Can you rationalize your own failures using the concept of the "patriarchy", and blame the other gender for nearly everything that goes wrong in your life - even with quite contorted explanations that no one would otherwise buy - while failures of the other gender are just ... failures?

30. Do you want to be treated like a child when it suits you but as an adult when you get an advantage from that? Do you "look the other way" when someone doesn't require responsibility from you that they certainly would from the other gender?

31. Can you focus heavily on perceived earnings in the workforce - the statistics of which are influenced by people's choices in reality - while utterly ignoring the inter-family transfer of wealth? Can you completely ignore the fact that one gender picks tougher jobs (garbage collector), works more hours and takes on more responsibility because of more pressure to earn - but the other gender has the same lifestyle and statistically more assets (and not just because of inheritance/earlier age of male at death...). Can you deliberately claim that earnings figures are based on equal pay for equal work? (when you probably full well know that they simply involve all people working more than 35 hours - and don't take type of job, hours worked over 35/week, danger, responsibility, years in the work force etc. into consideration at all).

32. Is what used to simply be an irritation for grown-ups many years ago - the self-centered rantings and foot stompings of spoiled high-school and college brats - now not only embraced by your movement but almost the modern cornerstone of it?

33. And if you are irritated about generalizations and stereotypes - and utterly fail to see the hypocrisy in stereotyping and generalizing about one gender while simultaneously making a career (literally in some cases) whining about your own gender being stereotyped ...

... you may have female/feminist privilege! But don't let on - because you can gain much more with a continual victim status.

Galt at Standyourground.com

Wookie

Add to that list:

Do you have your own personal bodyguard service, that will check down stair and put themselves at risk for your safety. Will bail you out of an arugement in a pub you started. This can be spouse's or strangers. But you ignor all the times men save womens lives and only ever talk about when men threatern womens lives!

Wookie
he Light That Burns Twice As Bright Burns Half As Long - Blade Runner

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill
English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)

neonsamurai

Quote
I do hear a lot about female privilege on this board, and periodically also how it's not even realized by some women because they can't see the forest for the trees or words to that effect.


Well, one is that it was your choice to join the army. To my knowledge women cannot be conscripted into the army, or have to do any kind of national service. I don't think women are allowed to be front line troops, or that there are any units made up entirely of female soldiers either.

Also, as you've mentioned women don't have to reach the same level of physical accomplishment to get through the army training. In the UK I believe that this also goes for the police and fire service. Like the army, you couldn't have a team of fire fighters made up entirely of women, as they are less physically able, but get the same pay.

Women get more maternity leave than men get for paternity leave and in the UK are promoted faster than men in most sectors. In fact in the business sector that I work in, female managers get paid more!

That's just a few, but Galt's list probably nailed most of the points.
Dr. Kathleen Dixon, the Director of Women's Studies: "We forbid any course that says we restrict free speech!"

lkanneg

In my personal, woman's life:

1. Do you experience other people paying for your dates, or occasionally even picking up the tab in non-romantic settings? Or paying for vacations when the relationship moves along?  Yes

2. Do you occasionally experience subservient gestures by the opposite sex(opening doors, giving up a seat in the bus, standing up when you come in the room)?  Not any more than I experience them from the same sex

3. Are you able to simply pursue what you are interested in at university without much societal pressure on "breadwinning" - although you could also take that route if it interests you?  No

4.a. Have you had to register for selective service? No

Would you be ripped out of your life and forced to defend your country in time of attack or national emergency? Until I was 27, yes.  Subsequently, no.

Can you demand strength and full participation in society, but then get out of this obligation by pretending to be weak with no influence over society (only when it suits you)?  No

4.b. Can you come up with any and every excuse to get out of this without being laughed at ("No one should be drafted" - when you would be the first to cower in the corner and demand that someone do something if China & Russia combined and attacked full force - and "If men start wars ..." when women are the majority of voters and the expression is more likely "Men are SENT in wars ..." - exactly what you're trying to get out of - and sometimes sent by M. Thatcher, G. Meir, I. Gandhi, B. Bhutto and others)

No

5. Will you statistically get a much lighter sentence for exactly the same offense if you commit a crime?  I don't know--good question, I'll have to research it and find out

6. Are you able to take on a job or choose a career route that is only capable of supporting yourself, with no thought to preparing yourself to also support a spouse/children, although you are also free to choose a more difficult career that will bring you more money?

No

Do you not have much pressure on you with regard to this? No

7. If you are in a committed relationship, do you have much greater flexibility to choose whether you want to work or simply stay at home (even without kids)?

No

8. Will you be called an unemployed loser if you decide to be a homemaker?

Yes by some, no by others

9. If you have a flat tire on the road, if someone is harassing you in a public place, if an animal attacks you, or if you are lost, will someone be much, much more likely to help you?

I think probably yes

10. Are people generally much nicer to you in public?

I don't know--I'll have to start paying attention to that as a gender issue to find out

Are you sometimes given privileged treatment?

I think this one is a little too general to answer

11. Are you much more capable of "marrying up" - enjoying the money and status that comes with this?

I think yes, but not necessarily as a function of gender

12. Are you statistically much more likely to be given money in a divorce - sometimes huge amounts - even if your behavior caused the divorce (e.g. affair) and even if you didn't work for the money?

I don't know--good question, I'll have to research it and find out

13. If you slap a person - or even knock someone's tooth out throwing your Aunt Selma's Christmas mug at that person - is it much more likely to just be viewed as cute, understandable or not a problem?

No, but I think the police would be less likely to be called

14. Do you statistically live much longer - possibly due to less stress on you with regard to breadwinning, providing protection, being responsible, not having society viewing you as "expendable" or viewing your problems as not being important?

The reasons are unknown to me at present, but I believe my statistical longevity exceeds a man's of the same age by about 10%

15. Do you have much more money spent on your health concerns in reality (e.g. 5 times as much on breast cancer as on prostate cancer - although they have roughly the same death rates) while you simultaneously claim that more has to be done for you?

Excluding reproductive organ concerns, no, I don't think so, but I'd have to research it to find out.  Including reproductive concerns, yes.  Though I don't claim more needs to be done for me.

16. Are you much less likely to be homeless?

I don't know--good question, I'll have to research it and find out

Is more offered to you by society when you are in this position? I think yes, but I'll have to research it and find out

17. Is there far less scorn and pressure on you by society when you are an irresponsible doofus?

I don't know--maybe yes--good question, I'll have to research it and find out

Are your default rates for payment of child support roughly twice those of the other gender, while you simultaneously complain about the other gender not paying?

No, not in my state

18. Has whining about and hating the other gender actually been made into a course of studies in college (women's studies) - as opposed to the true, neutral, unbiased study of this topic - which is simply anthropology?

I don't know that that's what women's studies is all about--the only women's studies class I took was a history class focusing on notable women of the time, and it wasn't about whining or hating men

19. Do you have full opportunity to do anything you want in life - become a doctor, a lawyer, start a business - while simultaneously using the fact that many of your gender don't CHOOSE themselves to do these things as an argument to try to gain even more advantages?

No

Do you get affirmative action because many of your gender don't choose to do these things, and thus the numbers don't "come out right"?

I disagree that's the only reason that the numbers don't come out right, but I agree that's one of the reasons they do, and I agree that affirmative action exists to benefit women, though it has not benefitted me personally

20. Can you manipulate the other gender with sex in some cases to get what you want?

Not any more than the other gender can, and it's more personally dangerous for me to attempt to do so than it is for the other gender

Can you pretend like you don't even know what anyone is talking about on this topic?

No

21. Can you manipulate using old notions of men protecting and deferring to women when it comes in handy?

No.  Maybe some women can though.

22. Can you effectively manipulate by playing the victim? Do tears work sometimes?

I think yes for other women.  I haven't tried it personally.

23. Can you get sympathy if you don't work and don't have children by listing all the household work (hmm ... Oprah really does get high ratings, though) while simultaneously being able to bear the cognitive dissonance of calling your sister's husband who stays home a worthless bum that she ought to leave?

No

24. Can you "mix and match" traditional and progressive roles - finding just the right mix to get what you want? Can you be a "traditional wife" - enjoying the positive features of that (like not having to work) - while simultaneously being a progressive feminist when THAT gets you advantages?

Yes, though I don't

Or having a career while simultaneously using traditional chivalry and male deference to your advantage?

No, though maybe some women can

25. Can you constantly say "that's just typical" and "it doesn't surprise me a bit" and make a lemon face if you are a parent-in-law?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this one.

Is near-universal contempt by both genders for your behavior hidden to a much greater extent?

I don't know--if it is, it's hidden so well I can't see it

26. Can almost any remark by your partner be construed as verbal abuse if you want sympathy, but the meanest, nastiest, most humiliating things that you can say simply involve "speaking your mind" and "some people just don't want to hear the truth"?

No

27. Can you use the fact that gender roles were differentiated long ago - with different advantages/disadvantages for both genders - to try to induce guilt today in people who had absolutely no connection with any of that?

I think some women can.  I haven't

Can you say that you have been discriminated against for thousands of years - when you're only 20 years old - with a straight face?

I can say women have been--I can't say I have been personally

Can you even make things up about history and no one will really check or dare call you on it?

No

28. Can you propagate myths and outright lies ("Superbowl/domestic violence hoax", "rule of thumb", 1/4 rape statistic, intentional misconstrual of pay figures, and many more) and be given a "pass" - without more rigor being demanded?

No

29. Can you rationalize your own failures using the concept of the "patriarchy", and blame the other gender for nearly everything that goes wrong in your life - even with quite contorted explanations that no one would otherwise buy - while failures of the other gender are just ... failures?

I think some women can.  I don't.

30. Do you want to be treated like a child when it suits you but as an adult when you get an advantage from that?

I think some women can.  I don't.

Do you "look the other way" when someone doesn't require responsibility from you that they certainly would from the other gender?

No

31. Can you focus heavily on perceived earnings in the workforce - the statistics of which are influenced by people's choices in reality - while utterly ignoring the inter-family transfer of wealth?

No

Can you completely ignore the fact that one gender picks tougher jobs (garbage collector), works more hours and takes on more responsibility because of more pressure to earn - but the other gender has the same lifestyle and statistically more assets (and not just because of inheritance/earlier age of male at death...).

No

Can you deliberately claim that earnings figures are based on equal pay for equal work? (when you probably full well know that they simply involve all people working more than 35 hours - and don't take type of job, hours worked over 35/week, danger, responsibility, years in the work force etc. into consideration at all).

No

32. Is what used to simply be an irritation for grown-ups many years ago - the self-centered rantings and foot stompings of spoiled high-school and college brats - now not only embraced by your movement but almost the modern cornerstone of it?

No

33. And if you irritated about generalizations and stereotypes - and utterly fail to see the hypocrisy in stereotyping and generalizing about one gender while simultaneously making a career (literally in some cases) whining about your own gender being stereotyped ...

No
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

The Gonzman

PMS - big excuse for everything from unprofessional behavior to murder.

Postpartum Depression - Andrea Yates Drowned her five kids.  Russel Yates gets beat up in the press for giving her children.  Andrea Yates gets sympathy and a retrial.

You will be presumed to be the primary caregiver in the event of a divorce - and sometimes even with evidence to the contrary.

The "Tender Years" doctrine.

Immunity from ANY type of draft, even for non-military service.

Girl pushups, red tees, and so on.

VAWA allows you to go out and file a restraining order on a spouse with no proff, and on merely the claim of "I'm afraid."

This order will be enforced draconianly, even if he hasn't been served with it - i.e. he is unaware of it.

This order can be used to dispossess him of property during a divorce, at at the end, your residence will be confiirmed - judges tend to preserve the status quo.  This will also go hand in hand with custody.

Even if you are shown to have gotten this under false pretenses, you will not be prosecuted for it.

Not only that, but you will be able to show it as evidence of possible abuse to get custody, et al.

And not only that, the fact that it was dismissed for no cause will be irrelevant if HE wants to bring it up.

Men are routinely told "Keep in in your pants" in the most sneering and derisive tone possible.  However, if we get an abstinence program going, no matter how "affrming" it is, that urges females to keep their skirts down, it will be jeered at and mocked.

We are urged with a full chorus of violins that women should be allowed abortions on demand, because "why should one mistake ruin a young girl's life?"  even though adoption is readily available, and the supply of babies can't keep up with the demand.  On the other hand, we think nothing of "Ruining a young man's life" even when he is an underage boy seduced by an older woman.

If you seduce your 16 year old neighbor who mows your lawn, you'll get a misdemeanor rap, probation, and won't register as a sex offender.  Let a man pick a girl a month shy of 18 up in a bar - where she is supposed to be 21 to enter - and have sex with her, and watch hard time and a permanent label of sex offender be laid on him.  The fact that she maerially misrepresented herself to him will be held to be irrelevant in the name of "zero tolerance."

Fun with torquing the system:  Have your lawyer call up the Human Resorces department and suggest that they guy who you are competing with for the promotion has sexually harassed you.  Watch what happens, even with no proof.

More fun with Torquing the system!  Watch the next "Cops!" marathon.  See the police officer pull up to the house.  See the guy outside with a fat lip.  See the woman inside without a mark on her tearfully claim he hit her - shoved her - held her - or something.  Watch her be taken at her word.  Watch him be badgered.  Watch him get cuffed and hauled away.  Now, you try it - next time you and your hubby have an argument, pull out this trump and have fun.  (Or maybe it never gets that far and you get your way because he knows that is the likely result)

Go to the store.  Pick up a few groceries.  Dash in front of the man with the full cart going up to the checkout. Give a pasted on smile and an insincere "Sorry!" but don't give up your place.  See if he says squat to you (Okay - don't do it with me, but with most guys...)

That'll keep you busy for a while.  Come back when you hae finished trying them out.  We'll have more.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

The Gonzman

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

The Gonzman

And the questions were not "Do you?" or "Are you any good at it?" but "CAN you?"
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

lkanneg

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
And the questions were not "Do you?" or "Are you any good at it?" but "CAN you?"


Yes, I understood that.  I'll go back and look at my answers to Galt's questions, making sure I answered them in that light, but I can already tell you that in some cases, no, I actually COULDN'T.  

Pinched for time right now, but this is a very interesting thread for me.  I'll be back soon as I get a little free time.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

The Gonzman

Quote from: "lkanneg"
Quote from: "Gonzokid"
And the questions were not "Do you?" or "Are you any good at it?" but "CAN you?"


Yes, I understood that.  I'll go back and look at my answers to Galt's questions, making sure I answered them in that light, but I can already tell you that in some cases, no, I actually COULDN'T.  

Pinched for time right now, but this is a very interesting thread for me.  I'll be back soon as I get a little free time.


That's the most common error is confusing "I couldn't drop to that level" with the end conclusion of "Therefore no woman would do that, or at most only a very small few."

You CAN accuse you husband falsely of abuse, get him thrown in jail, etc. and so on.  Admitting that this is so in no way suggests it is personally in your nature.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

TheManOnTheStreet

Serious question;

Where you are employed, specifically your department, how many women and how many men?

Al
The Man On The Street is on the street for a reason.......
_________________________________
It's not illegal to be male.....yet.

Galt

If she's in engineering, I would assume more men.

The Biscuit Queen

She needs to look at "can the majority of women....."

She says she will research a lot of things. It will be interesting to see where she gets the data from.

Ikanneg, please if you don't mind cite the links you get your data from? Shouldn't be a big deal if you open two browsers and cut and paste as you go along.
he Biscuit Queen
www.thebiscuitqueen.blogspot.com

There are always two extremes....the truth lies in the middle.

Mr Benn

Are you able to enter a forum thread and consistantly draw the conversation onto *yourself*?

Are you able to endlessly waffle on about how sexy, perfect, moral etc you are and not have people call you a big-headed jerk?

Are you able - in most workplaces - to have a far larger leyway in what kind of clothes you can wear, such as more colourful and comfortable/casualwear, while the opposite sex has to wear boring suits?

Do you own a small Villa in Provence?

(Okay, I'll give you that last one).
ww.CoolTools4Men.com

Mr Benn

Quote from: "The Biscuit Queen"

Ikynag, please if you don't mind cite the links you get your data from? Shouldn't be a big deal if you open two browsers and cut and paste as you go along.


If you have the Firefox browser you can open multiple pages in tabs within the same browser.
ww.CoolTools4Men.com

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