Fem firefighters sidelined, as males won't protect them

Started by TerryGale, Sep 20, 2005, 08:18 AM

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TerryGale

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/09/20/Northpinellas/Threat_limits_female_.shtml

Threat limits female fire duty

Clearwater's fire chief will keep women out of blazing buildings after threats are linked to union concerns.

By AARON SHAROCKMAN, Published September 20, 2005

CLEARWATER - Female firefighters no longer will be allowed to enter burning buildings amid threats that their male colleagues won't protect them, the fire chief said Monday.

Fire Chief Jamie Geer said the threats were made because some of the city's nine female firefighters had discussed leaving the city's fire union. The women were displeased with the union local's leadership, the chief said.

News of the discussion made it to other union members, who relayed messages to the women that if they resigned their membership, they may not make it out of their next structure fire, said City Manager Bill Horne.

Geer said he does not believe the threats were based on gender.

The seriousness or extent of the threats is unknown, and an internal investigation is under way. In the meantime, Geer has ordered all nine women in the 179-person department away from structure fires for the time being.

Female firefighters will still respond to fires and all other typical emergency calls. But when a building is ablaze, women will not be allowed inside, Geer said. Instead, they will be assigned tasks that keep them outside the structure.

Geer said extra firefighters will be dispatched to respond to fires if needed.

The women have been allowed to ask for a transfer or time off, but none of them have so far, said Geer, who has no timetable to complete his investigation.

Geer said he has also notified the city attorney's office and Police Department. Police spokesman Wayne Shelor said detectives are not investigating the allegations.

Union leaders, meanwhile, said they have no details of wrongdoing and called the idea of firefighters threatening other firefighters "far-reaching."

Local union treasurer and secretary Dave Hogan said union leaders were surprised by the complaint.

"We have no information, we have nothing but e-mails and innuendos," Hogan said. "To tell you the truth, I don't think there's a single member of our Fire Department that would threaten anybody, let alone a fellow firefighter."

Geer would not reveal specifics, including who was threatened, when, or how. In explaining why all nine of the female firefighters were subject to the ban, he said he did not want to single out any one accuser.

Geer said he excluded all nine female firefighters for their own safety.

"No matter how credible or serious the threat is, I can't sit back, do nothing, than watch one of our people get hurt," Geer said. "I have to keep them out of harm's way."

Reached Monday, Fire Lt. Anna Rowell, a 12-year veteran, said she was never threatened. She said she did not know who reported the threat.

The eight other female firefighters either could not be reached or did not return messages Monday.

Rowell expressed concern that Geer's order would hurt the standing of all the women in the department.

"We have a very strong union. We have a lot of strong people in the union," Rowell said. "I think they can be intimidating. However, as a firefighter, I have felt nothing but taken care of by the guys in the Fire Department. I never felt ... discrimination in this department until today."

All nine of the city's female firefighters are members of the International Association of Fire Fighters Local 1158, according to city records. One, Jennifer Wargin, is listed as a member of the union's board of trustees, according to its Web site.

Geer discussed the charges and his order a day before union leaders were expected to announce the results today of a confidence vote in their chief, who has been on the job 13 months. The vote has sharpened longstanding tensions between the union and administration. So has a subsequent e-mail from Geer saying firefighters must "cleanse our organization of the disgraceful and incompetent behavior."

In an e-mail to firefighters Saturday about the ban, Geer said the threat carries "the most absolute disgust and concern."

"Can you imagine having your firefighter threatened in any manner?" Geer asked Monday. "Especially by fellow firefighters."

Horne said city officials have heard about allegations of intimidation within the union in the past. Firefighters, he said, would be blackballed or ostracized if they spoke out against union leadership.

Horne said he believed the most recent charges were credible. Two years ago, the union made and displayed an effigy of Horne outside City Hall that some considered racist.

"It's distasteful. It's very unfortunate," Horne said. "I don't believe our female firefighters made this up by any stretch of the imagination."

Female firefighters comprise a small percentage of employees in departments across Tampa Bay and across the nation.

According to Women in the Fire Service Inc., there are 6,200 women serving as firefighters in the United States.

There are 20 female firefighters in the 322-member St. Petersburg Fire Department, said Assistant Chief James Large. He believes all are members of the union.

In Tampa, there are about 25 female firefighters, said Capt. Bill Wade.

--Times staff writers Chris Tisch and Saundra Amrhein contributed to this report.
[Last modified September 20, 2005, 01:54:19]

Darth Sidious

As if these female "firefighters" were in the thick of the action before. :roll:

Society needs to quit playing pretend; making women into "firefighters" is absurd to begin with.  It requires a lot of strength to handle those fire hoses once the water starts going through them.  The protective equipment is quite heavy too.

realman

There are some pretty tough women out there... I say as long as they can perform as well as their male counterparts on all levels there's no reason to exclude them. But I'm 5'9, 195 lbs... if I'm in a burning building, I don't want to have to depend on a 5'3 110 lb woman to get me out any more than I want to depend on a 5'9 130 lb man. They would both need to be capable of actually having a chance of being able to help me out, or of getting themselves out if they got into trouble. Cause I don't want to ahve to go and save either of their asses from soemthing a  stronger person could've gotten out of on his or her own, either.

I think the same should apply to the military... if she can handle the same physical, mental, and emotional criteria as the men, I see now problem with it.

The Gonzman

Quote from: "realman"
There are some pretty tough women out there... I say as long as they can perform as well as their male counterparts on all levels there's no reason to exclude them. But I'm 5'9, 195 lbs... if I'm in a burning building, I don't want to have to depend on a 5'3 110 lb woman to get me out any more than I want to depend on a 5'9 130 lb man. They would both need to be capable of actually having a chance of being able to help me out, or of getting themselves out if they got into trouble. Cause I don't want to ahve to go and save either of their asses from soemthing a  stronger person could've gotten out of on his or her own, either.

I think the same should apply to the military... if she can handle the same physical, mental, and emotional criteria as the men, I see now problem with it.


No - it's a different thing, for which volumes could be written.  You can go home from police or fire duty - a combat situation is something entirely different, and you will have to take my word, I am afraid.

There is no place for a sexual dynamic, even a one sided one, in a combat zone.  None.  Zilch.  It is a Very Bad Thing.  So much so that the risk of it justifies using statistics to exclude both women and gays, even if otherwise qualified.  There are so few women otherwise qualified for the rigors (Canada could barely come up with a squad?), and so few gays in the general population....no. People have no idea what a complete and utter disaster that would be.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

Darth Sidious

Quote from: "realman"
There are some pretty tough women out there... I say as long as they can perform as well as their male counterparts on all levels there's no reason to exclude them. But I'm 5'9, 195 lbs... if I'm in a burning building, I don't want to have to depend on a 5'3 110 lb woman to get me out any more than I want to depend on a 5'9 130 lb man. They would both need to be capable of actually having a chance of being able to help me out, or of getting themselves out if they got into trouble. Cause I don't want to ahve to go and save either of their asses from soemthing a  stronger person could've gotten out of on his or her own, either.

I think the same should apply to the military... if she can handle the same physical, mental, and emotional criteria as the men, I see now problem with it.


Oh, yes, all those "tough" women; the only ones I see fitting that description are on those ridiculous movies and TV shows like Alias with the stereotypical heroine kicking everyone's ass.

Just how many of these women who become "firefighters" can actually meet men's standards?  Very few if any.  So why are we wasting time giving these opportunities in the first place?  Couldn't time be better spent on those most likely to pass and succeed?  Besides, just because someone can meet such standards to begin with does not mean they are as effective as the others.  It is a well-established fact that men have greater ability to build muscle mass.

Why do women want to join a fire department to begin with?  I think we know the reason:  they are most likely doing it to "prove" they can do anything a man can do only better; in other words, it is all for the sisterhood.

Where fires, wars and crime are fought is no place for social engineering.

lkanneg

"Fire Chief Jamie Geer said the threats were made because some of the city's nine female firefighters had discussed leaving the city's fire union. The women were displeased with the union local's leadership, the chief said.

News of the discussion made it to other union members, who relayed messages to the women that if they resigned their membership, they may not make it out of their next structure fire, said City Manager Bill Horne."

Hmm.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

The Gonzman

Are they doing it because they are women, or because they are bucking the union?
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

Darth Sidious

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
No - it's a different thing, for which volumes could be written.  You can go home from police or fire duty - a combat situation is something entirely different, and you will have to take my word, I am afraid.

There is no place for a sexual dynamic, even a one sided one, in a combat zone.  None.  Zilch.  It is a Very Bad Thing.  So much so that the risk of it justifies using statistics to exclude both women and gays, even if otherwise qualified.  There are so few women otherwise qualified for the rigors (Canada could barely come up with a squad?), and so few gays in the general population....no. People have no idea what a complete and utter disaster that would be.


I agree with you about the battlefield, but I do not think police and firefighting jobs are significantly more suitable for social engineering.

lkanneg

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
Are they doing it because they are women, or because they are bucking the union?


I kind of got the impression of the latter.
quot;Remember no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
--Eleanor Roosevelt

"Something which we think is impossible now is not impossible in another decade."
-- Constance Baker Motley

"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got."
--Janis Joplin

realman

I wasn't really taking the sexual dynamic into account Gonz- there is truth to what you say. I was thinking only in terms of individual ability tp physically, mentally, and emotionally perform their duties to the same standard as men.

Darth- I didn't say there were MANY women who could meet the same standards as men. But.... there are a few. Even if it's just one in 10,000, there ARE women on this planet who could kick my sorry ass. It may be fewer than that even.... I've probably only ever encountered 3-5 of them in my life. But they do exist. You'd be surprised how strong a bigger-framed, huskier-built woman can be- granted, most are still not as physically strong as the majority of men, but one or two here and there certainly are- and it can be deceptive because the muscle definition is not present to the extent it is in men, assuming they're fully clothed they might just look like they've had a few dozen too many donuts- but under a thin layer of fat, they are solid. They're not all either skinny little waifs or overweight bonbon-poppers!

typhonblue

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
There is no place for a sexual dynamic, even a one sided one, in a combat zone.  None.  Zilch.  It is a Very Bad Thing.  So much so that the risk of it justifies using statistics to exclude both women and gays, even if otherwise qualified.


The Theban band?

The Last stand at Thermopylae?

Samuari?

The Gonzman

Quote from: "typhonblue"
Quote from: "Gonzokid"
There is no place for a sexual dynamic, even a one sided one, in a combat zone.  None.  Zilch.  It is a Very Bad Thing.  So much so that the risk of it justifies using statistics to exclude both women and gays, even if otherwise qualified.


The Theban band?

The Last stand at Thermopylae?

Samuari?


All losers, too.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

typhonblue

Yes, you're right.

Male martial cultures did eventually loose out to the forces of matriarchy.

I suppose motherhood will always trump the sword.


(Although it's a streach to see the last stand at Thermopylae as true defeat. The forces arrayed against the 300 were overwhelming, yet the Spartans still managed to inflict astronomical casaulties on the Persians. The men there were defeated because they were facing impossible odds and did not run, but fought till they had nothing left to fight with.)

TestSubject

These ladies can use this as a learning experience, a reality check few women are offered today.  Sometimes when you try to influence change with your antics, you get burned.  Sometimes "shut up and do what your told" works best.  It's okay to be displeased, but shut up about it.

Factory

Frankly this article is SPIN.  The firefighters in question were obviously being threatened (if they were) on the basis of leaving the union rather than thier sex.  Only the media doesn't want that connection made.  You know...so they can claim discrimination rather than admit that union and left-leaning politics are every bit as hostile and threatening as they like to paint corporate America and Republican politics.

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