Thought this might be of interest

Started by lkanneg, Oct 17, 2005, 11:51 AM

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The Gonzman

Quote from: "Gerard Velthuis"
Gonzokid, I am a masculist just like you guys.
However I don't agree with some of the people here who embrace the male pill.


Well, a masculist is a reverse feminist.  I embrace radical equality - which means if need be shoving the bad with the good down feminist throats

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To say you have a bullshit, disinformation, and propaganda alert here on me makes me feel like a child and I find this rather insulting. I don't appreciate this at all.
I am a 100% masculist however I don't agree with some of you guys' ideas of the male pill. I already have explained why in the previous threads about the male pill so I don't want to fall in repetition here.

to reply to your comment (well more like an attack):


Go ahead and call it an attack.  It is.  You are drinking the Kool-Aid, and need to be woke up.

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There is no scientific evidence Gonzo. The male pill is far from being complete and that is why it is impossible to say what the side-effects might be.
It took years before it came clear for the female pill what the side effects were, so the long-run side effects for the male pill simply can not be known yet.


This is because the female pill was rushed to market.  The male pill has been held up - largely at feminist urging[/i][/u] - for twenty years.

How far you going to move those goalposts for long term studies?

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Of course the people who manufacture this product will say that it is 100% safe, but those are the people actually selling and promoting their product so of course they will never say it has side-effects.
That is also what they said about cigarettes in the beginning. It was safe, and they never admitted it could cause health problems. Till years later when they simply couldn't keep on lying anymore.


Fallacy of composition.

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You can bet your ass that the male pill WILL have side effects, just like the female pill, however how severe this may be and what exactly are these side effects simply can not be told yet. So don't be fooled by these people who say there are no side effects.


Aspirin and penicillin have side effects.  Early nineties.  15 years, and we are just entering clinical trials.  We have cough drops that aren't tested this thoroughly.

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In the article mainly one man is mentioned.
He was taking the male pill one yr. That is no way enough to state that there are no long-term effects. Also it is just ONE man, so this really doesn't say anything. It is a sample of 1 person, statistically this doesn't prove anything. It is even laughable that they only use comments of one person. There could have been persons that DID have side effects and they could simply have chosen not to interview them.


Any evidence to support this assertion?  Didn't think so - it's fear-mongering and scare tactics.  Appeal to fear, appeal to consequences, argument from ignorance.

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Also the person mentioned DID actually say there were side effects:

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"I may have put on a little weight"


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"It seemed like I was getting headaches and then there were times when I woke up sweating at night and I had to change my shirt."


I get worse side effects from Ny-Quil.

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I knew somebody would say something about this. Yes the male body also produces female hormons but MUCH MUCH less than women.
And yes women also produce male hormons but 20 times (!) less than men.


And?  Such hormones are used to regulate fertility - just like the body does.  Your argument clearly implied such birth control was "natural" for women, and somehow artificial and unnatural for men.  False analogy.

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At the moment it seems that there are being developed multiple male birth control methods. In previous articles they mentioned, especially with the implants, that they would use female hormons and later this would be "corrected" again with extra male hormons. Seems to me this is simply juggling with hormons and this can't be much good.


I see.  It "seems."  No facts, just fear.

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Well here they mention they (also) use testosterone. Well like I said, it seems there will be multiple methods. However adding extra hormons simply can't be good in the first place.


Yeah, right. "Well, I see here that oops, I was wrong and was talking out of my arse.  So I'll still joust at the straw man I have set up.  It can't be good, because it is desperate;ly important to me that I not be responsible for myself so I can continue to blame the world for my problems instead of doing for myself."

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My information is not inaccurate. I get it from recent articles and I know one or two things about male and female anatomy.
My information is not outdated. I use information from articles recently published.
Those are not lies. Unless the articles are using lies. It is simply something you don't share but that doesn't make it lies.


It's misinformation.  It's blowing things out of proportion.  It's your failure to think critically and present all evidence, and moreso, to present out of date evidence from preliminary exploration as modern fact that is false.

I don't know what else to call willfully supplying false information besides a "lie."

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The way you are reacting is simply because we don't agree. That doesn't mean you can accuse me of spreading lies or inaccurate information.


Well, when you tell slanted untruths and present inaccurate information.... Ain't my fault your mind is made up and you refuse to be confused by facts.

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I have said it in the other treads also: Theoretically the male pill might benefit men.


So let's not even give it a try, and make failure CERTAIN instead of merely possible?  Well, that makes a lot of sense.

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However in practise I don't see it happening (much). Also many men are simply not waiting for it and they couldn't care less.


Since I have all my limbs, I'm not waiting for advancements in prosthetics.  And?
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Like I said, it might benefit SOME men but for most men it will indeed be a n extra burden (just like many women experience it at the moment, they don't see it as power, but more a burden and many women wish they could transfer this burden to men.


I see.  Since some stupid women don't want to be in control of their lives, men should be equally as stupid.  Well, I guess that's equality in a twisted way.

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However most women will not trust their husbands / bfs for taking the male pill so chances are the majority of women will STILL use the female pill.


It's not FOR women.  It's for men.  It's for taking control of your own reproduction and not relying on the woman to do so.  Bully if the woman is responsible for her own self.  That's not excuse to not be responsible for your own self.

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Here there was a survey recently that said the majority of men thought the male pill was a good thing (a welcome), however to me this is simply giving a PC comment because if you would say the male pill is not a nice welcome you would be considered a sexist.


So those of us here at SYG - in fact the very vast and very overwhelming majority of us here at SYG - who disagree with you on this are just saying so because we're politically correct, and holding our opinion for show.

I see.  And *I'M* an asshat.

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But then it turned out only 17% of men would be willing to ACTUALLY use the male pill


Well, let's see - if I was a man with a vasectomy - which I am - I wouldn't use the pill.  If I were a man wanting more children, I wouldn't use the pill.  If I were a man who had a trustworthy wife who didn't want kids and was taking the pill for herself, I wouldn't spend money on redundant birth control.  I wouldn't take the male pill if my partner were sterile.

I can think of a lot of reasons not to take it.  That mere stat says absolutely nothing, let alone proves anything.

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AND, maybe even more surprisingly only 15% of women would trust their spouses using the male pill. So only 15% of women were prepared to transfer the pill to men.)


So?  Gee, what a shock.  Women aren't ready to cede equal say and control over reproduction to men.  Hmm, wonder why?  Oh yeah, if they don't have total control over it, they can't use it to exercise power over men - heck, they might even be forced to negotiate with a mere male as an equal.

Besides, I don't recall the survey done here even mentioning such a thing in the above two statements, anyway.  And I just looked up that survey.  You got a link to something I missed here, or is it just more made up statistics?

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Something similar is also mentioned in the article several times:

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Forty-year-old Scott Hardin says he's glad that men may soon have a new choice when it comes to birth control. But, he adds, he would not even consider taking a male hormonal contraceptive.


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... but [a lot of men] are wary of taking any type of hormones.


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But will men take it? ... some say only if their partners make them, and other say they would never even consider it.


Some men won't take vitamins.  Some men won't use aftershave.  Some men won't eat turnips.  Some men won't wear sweaters.  Some men won't drink beer.  And so on, and so forth, yadda, yadda, yadda, etc. etc. ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

Any other irrelevancies and non sequiteurs you'd like to cite?  Shall we ban all the above things?  Stop growing turnips?  Stop manufacturing sweaters?

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Yes I agree. I think many men who actually would take the male pill will be MADE (sort or less) by their spouses.


Any man who could be *MADE* to take the male pill is worthless and weak, and needs to have his testicles revoked.  Their weak-sister attitude shouldn't even make the radar and you should be ashamed to even consider it.  They are a disgrace to manhood.
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This would prove that for such men the male pill is indeed a burden otherwise their spouses wouldn't have to "force" them. I think these men are more than happy their wives / gfs would take the pill.


I'm not concerned in the least that weak-willed simpering, pussy-whipped milquetoast pseudo-men would be "burdened."

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Look this is where I disagree with you guys (at least the ones who have reacted). You see the male pill as power. I say: most men (the majority) don't think like you guys do. They don't care about it. To them it is just a burden.


And that attitude needs to be condemned and corrected.  Real men take charge of their lives, and don't regard the means to do so as a burden.

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Anyway, I really don't want to continue this "debate". We have had 3 threads about this not so long agao, and I think enough has been said in these 3 threads.


You stuck your nose in and stuck your neck out - if you don't want to talk about it - DON'T.  Shut up.  If you want to keep talking about it, keep on doing it.  Your call.

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Also, if I am really being watched I don't appreciate this at all.


Paranoid much?  If you have anything besides hysteria and fear mongering on the horrible side-effects you warn of, by all means - present it.  If all you have is frantic arm-waving and chicken little dire prophecies, though, expect to be called on it.  That's not being watched.  That's being challenged.

Now, accusing someone of being a feminist and demanding that they scan in writings and post them - that's watching someone.

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This is a board where everybody can say what they want.


That includes disagree with you.  You have no right to be unchallenged. Grow up.

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Just because I disagree with some of you guys on ONE topic doesn't mean you have the right to watch my every move. If this is the way I will be treated at this board, like a baby, I am not sure if I want to continue posting here.


But it was good enough for you to treat Indiana Jones that way?  That's called dishing it out but not taking it.   It's nobody's problem but your own if your alligator mouth is writing checks your hummingbird ass can't cash.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

Gerard Velthuis

Gonzo, you are trying to provoke me into a discussion. I already said what I wanted to say about the male pill in the other three threads. If you want information then look it up in these threads.

I refuse to go into a discussion again here.
t is time men start behaving like men again and stand up for their rights, instead of behaving like conformist push-overs.

The Gonzman

Quote from: "Gerard Velthuis"
Gonzo, you are trying to provoke me into a discussion. I already said what I wanted to say about the male pill in the other three threads. If you want information then look it up in these threads.

I refuse to go into a discussion again here.


And you're as wrong here as you are there.  Like I said - if you don't want to talk about it - shut up.  It's your call.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

Gerard Velthuis

Look Gonzo, I believe you are wrong. I have explained already why I say that I believe you are wrong. I don't want to repeat myself again.
I have said clearly (!) why I believe you are wrong in those other three threads. I don't want to copy / paste myself here.

I like to talk about it and I have. Those 3 threads are very long threads and I explained myself clearly. I just don't like to repeat myself over and over again. For me this topic is closed (at least in this thread) because I don't see any new reason to continue about this again.

Telling me to shut up sounds very aggressive. It sounds more like an attack (again). I think you need to cool off a bit.
t is time men start behaving like men again and stand up for their rights, instead of behaving like conformist push-overs.

Gerard Velthuis

By the way, you wanted evidence of the statistics that I mentioned. Well here it is. Good luck with the Dutch.
(If you want to you can verify it by the Sad Guy)
I guess I was wrong about the men. A whopping 19% (!) are willing to actually use the male pill (instead of the 17% I mentioned).
(15% of the women are positive about the male pill and would actually be willing to transfer the pill to men (due to lack of trust, NOT lack of power. But of course you will say that all these women are lying and actually say this because they don't want to lose the "power" the pill gives them. BS. )).

http://www.planet.nl/planet/show/id=75098/contentid=465867/sc=e5e3c0

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Weinig vertrouwen in mannenpil

Gepubliceerd op maandag 19 april 2004

Een man aan de anticonceptiepil moet kunnen. Dat vindt vier op de vijf Nederlanders van 18 jaar en ouder. Toch is de bereidheid om gebruik te maken van de mannenpil niet erg hoog. Zo blijkt uit gegevens van TNS NIPO.

Geboortebeperking
De farmaceutische industrie werkt al jaren aan de ontwikkeling van de mannenpil. Het zal nog wel zo'n vijf jaar duren voordat de pil op de markt komt, maar dan nog is het afwachten of er wel vraag naar is.

Het zijn vooral de vrouwen die sceptisch staan tegenover de pil voor mannen. Liever houden ze het heft zelf in handen. Uiteindelijk zullen zij voor de consequenties moeten opdraaien, als de pil niet of niet juist wordt ingenomen. Voor het onderzoek zijn 1032 Nederlanders van 18 jaar en ouder ondervraagd. Hieruit is naar voren gekomen dat 70 procent tussen de 18 en 34 jaar aan geboortebeperking doet. Van de Nederlanders van 18 jaar en ouder, zegt 36 procent een condoom of anticonceptiepil te gebruiken.

Overstap
De anticonceptie voor mannen, vindt 80 procent van de ondervraagden een goede zaak. De zogenaamde 'mannenpil' staat er aan te komen en zal net als de 'vrouwenpil' dagelijks moeten worden ingenomen, om zo een zwangerschap bij de partner te voorkomen. Slechts 12 procent vindt het geen goede zaak en negen procent heeft hier geen mening over. De meningen van mannen en vrouwen gaan ongeveer gelijk op.

Maar als het puntje bij het paaltje komt, blijkt slechts een kleine groep het anticonceptiemiddel daadwerkelijk te overwegen. Slechts 19 procent van de mannen en maar 15 procent van de vrouwen geeft aan positief te staan tegenover de mannenpil en zelfs zeker te zullen overstappen naar deze nieuwe vorm van anticonceptie.

Bronnen: TNS NIPO, ANP
t is time men start behaving like men again and stand up for their rights, instead of behaving like conformist push-overs.

Gerard Velthuis

Anyway, that is the last I want to say about the male pill at this thread.
t is time men start behaving like men again and stand up for their rights, instead of behaving like conformist push-overs.

Gerard Velthuis

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(15% of the women are positive about the male pill and would actually be willing to transfer the pill to men (due to lack of trust, NOT lack of power.


It should have said just 15% of women are positive about the male pill and would actually be willing to transfer the pill to men (due to lack of trust, NOT lack of power.
t is time men start behaving like men again and stand up for their rights, instead of behaving like conformist push-overs.

dr e

Gerard - You are making claims that the male birth control pill will have unwelcome side effects.  What Gonzo and others are asking is that you offer some proof of this claim.  Please post it or admit you don't have that proof.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Gerard Velthuis

Lastly, here is an article about a feminist (professor in gender studies) who can't wait for the male pill to be introduced. According to her: It is now or never.
Of course it is in Dutch but apparently you are eager for Dutch articles now.

http://www2.rnw.nl/rnw/nl/themes/wetenschap/mannenpil040316.html

Here is a picture of the "lovely" lady:



And this is how it will look like (at least one method):



It says: it will be a implant with FEMALE hormons that will be implemented in the male's body (probably arm) and later there will be injections of male hormons (testosteron). In other words, it involves juggling with hormons which I doubt can be any good (i.e. side effects).

Also here is an interesting article about the male pill (in English):
http://www.frontlist.com/detail/0822331950

Also by a feminist (again).

Here is a very interesting part:

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Initial interest in the male pill, she shows, came from outside the scientific community: from the governments of China and India, which were interested in population control, and from Western feminists, who wanted the responsibilities and health risks associated with contraception shared more equally between the sexes.


I have said it from the beginning, unlike what some of you guys have said, feminists WANT the male pill. They can't wait. Just another burden of women that can be shifted to men. You guys think too much in power. I wish I could agree with you guys, I really do, but I am looking through it from the practical / reality perspective, and here men don't see it as power. You guys are too obsessed with the power idea that you are forgetting how things might turn out in REALITY for the AVERAGE man.

It is birth control RESPONSIBILITY. Not birth control POWER.
Just more "responsibility" / burden shifted towards men.
t is time men start behaving like men again and stand up for their rights, instead of behaving like conformist push-overs.

Gerard Velthuis

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Gerard - You are making claims that the male birth control pill will have unwelcome side effects. What Gonzo and others are asking is that you offer some proof of this claim. Please post it or admit you don't have that proof.


E, the male pill WILL have side effects. Just like the female pill has side effects. IMO I would not be suprised if the side effects would be bigger since the male pill, at least in some forms, involves literally juggling with hormons. A lot of female hormons which the male body is not accustomed to (at least not in such proportions).

Further in the article the man being interviewed also mentioned that there are indeed side effects:

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"I may have put on a little weight"


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"It seemed like I was getting headaches and then there were times when I woke up sweating at night and I had to change my shirt."


Further it is hard to prove (or disprove) that the male pill will have side effects because it hasn't even be introduced yet. I am sure when the female pill was being introduced nothing was known, or said, about the side effects of the female pill and years later the side effects slowly emerged, and the same will happen with the male pill.

Thus in conclusion, even though it is hard to prove (yet) that the male pill will or won't have side effects, I think it would not be unlikely that it WILL since the female pill also has several side effects.
I think it is (very) foolish to say that the male pill will not have any side effects, and further I don't believe anything from the people who develop the male pill because they will be the last people to admit that there will be side effects. Obviously, they will not trash down their own (selling) product.
t is time men start behaving like men again and stand up for their rights, instead of behaving like conformist push-overs.

StahlKatze

This is so cool.  I'm not sure why some would consider it a burden for men.  It seems to me that it would be taking a lot of worry away.   As it stands, men have three "choices".  Abstinence, condoms or a vasectomy.  

Karen
"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value. I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death." " ~Thomas Paine

The Gonzman

Quote from: "Gerard Velthuis"
Anyway, that is the last I want to say about the male pill at this thread.


And how many postings later....

Side effects are inevitable with anything.  Get a clue.  You can't even eat broccoli without side effects, so you are setting an unreasonably high bar.  Will they be long term?  Will they be debilitating?  Will they affect sexual function and fertility?

We're talking hormones, the same hormones which have been used in hormone therapy for DECADES.  The same safe, no long term damage hormones.  Now what they are doing is calculating dosages to achive temporary sterility without even minor side effects - Hell, Gerald, they have got, and have had for a long ass time the MAJOR ones licked.

Second - so what?  One lone feminist wants it.  Gee - I bet she thinks the sky is blue, too.  Guess I better change my opinion.  That's a classic ad hominem argument.

Wow.  Only a few women are eager for this.  Yeah - wonder why?  Whine, snivel, and blubber about "Burdens" to the guy who got roped into marriage or child support by an unscrupulous woman who felt that having children was her choice alone.  Or to the guy who got suckered into paying for another man's child by some slut who couldn't recall the meaning of the word "Faithful."

Tell you what, Gerald - you "Burdened" sad sacks willing to foot the bill for those guys?  Where do we send the bill to?  How much you throwing in to pay it?  I got a friend right now paying $675 USD for three kids, two of which were "oops!" kids.  Lemme see - divided by three is 225 - times two - that's $450 dollars, US.  I trust you'll be putting your money where your mouth is and sending a monthly check to him so you don't have to be "burdened" with taking charge of your own life, mkay?

Didn't think so.

Now, you kept it going, so don't say you're "done with it" unless you intend to shut up about it.  You keep spreading your weak-willed propaganda, I'll keep countering it.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

Mr. X

Quote from: "Gonzokid"
Quote from: "Gerard Velthuis"
Anyway, that is the last I want to say about the male pill at this thread.


And how many postings later....

Side effects are inevitable with anything.  Get a clue.  You can't even eat broccoli without side effects, so you are setting an unreasonably high bar.  Will they be long term?  Will they be debilitating?  Will they affect sexual function and fertility?

We're talking hormones, the same hormones which have been used in hormone therapy for DECADES.  The same safe, no long term damage hormones.  Now what they are doing is calculating dosages to achive temporary sterility without even minor side effects - Hell, Gerald, they have got, and have had for a long ass time the MAJOR ones licked.

Second - so what?  One lone feminist wants it.  Gee - I bet she thinks the sky is blue, too.  Guess I better change my opinion.  That's a classic ad hominem argument.

Wow.  Only a few women are eager for this.  Yeah - wonder why?  Whine, snivel, and blubber about "Burdens" to the guy who got roped into marriage or child support by an unscrupulous woman who felt that having children was her choice alone.  Or to the guy who got suckered into paying for another man's child by some slut who couldn't recall the meaning of the word "Faithful."

Tell you what, Gerald - you "Burdened" sad sacks willing to foot the bill for those guys?  Where do we send the bill to?  How much you throwing in to pay it?  I got a friend right now paying $675 USD for three kids, two of which were "oops!" kids.  Lemme see - divided by three is 225 - times two - that's $450 dollars, US.  I trust you'll be putting your money where your mouth is and sending a monthly check to him so you don't have to be "burdened" with taking charge of your own life, mkay?

Didn't think so.

Now, you kept it going, so don't say you're "done with it" unless you intend to shut up about it.  You keep spreading your weak-willed propaganda, I'll keep countering it.



Plus the male reproductive system is more fragile than the female one. Its very easy to mess with the male system and have the male turn out either impotent or sterilized. Male testicles stop producing sperm under a lot of conditions. For example, men who have vasectomies pretty much lose the ability to produce sperm at all after anout 5 years. Even if the plumbing is restored they are sterile for life. So one big obstacle to a male birth control pill, patch or shot is that there's a big risk of sterility and impotance.
Feminists - "Verbally beating men like dumb animals or ignoring them is all we know and its not working."

Gerard Velthuis

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Even if the plumbing is restored they are sterile for life.


This is simply not true. It IS possible to be vertile again. One can even pregnate a woman, however chances are almost 50% smaller.
t is time men start behaving like men again and stand up for their rights, instead of behaving like conformist push-overs.

The Biscuit Queen

Here is the thing. It really should not be up to the drug companies or the feminists what goes on market. Quite frankly, so long as the buyer is aware of the side effects, it is his choice to take the medication or not. Many medications have serious side effects; the medication for a certain foot fungus will cause permanant liver damage in a certain percentage of cases. This fungus is not life threatening, mainly cosmetic, yet this side effect is an acceptable risk for many.

The only way for the male pill to get the funding it needs is to put a form out there are see what interest there is in it. The population of pill takers will form the database for the next round of studies and advances. That is how these things work. I do not think from what I have read that the risk is extremely high of these side effects. Just because the risk is too high for you, Gerard, it does not mean that it is too high for everyone else.

Quite frankly, Gerard, you have a tendancy to blow off activism projects, attack new members as feminist spies, and poo hoo new advances. I really do not think you are the person I would take advice from. But that is just my opinion.
he Biscuit Queen
www.thebiscuitqueen.blogspot.com

There are always two extremes....the truth lies in the middle.

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