Thought this might be of interest

Started by lkanneg, Oct 17, 2005, 11:51 AM

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Gerard Velthuis

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I do not think from what I have read that the risk is extremely high of these side effects. Just because the risk is too high for you, Gerard, it does not mean that it is too high for everyone else.


I never said the risks are too high, BQ, and I never said this is the main reason not to use the male pill. I just wanted to point out there there WILL BE side effects, while some people here claim there will not be any side effects.

I don't blow off activism. I just would like to see the men's movement more effective and active in real activism. Something that is lacking at the moment. I don't disapprove it, I just would like things to be a bit different as they are now since IMO the men's movement is not very much effective at the moment and this needs to change.

I only attacked IJ because I found his stories very remarkable and a bit unlikely for a 15 yr old boy who seems to have equal knowledge and equal ideas, etc as most adult men and women here. Also I was not the only one who thought like this. Roy seemed to think the same way, and in the other posts of IJ, there were more people who also found the whole thing a bit "fishy".

I wouldn't call the male pill a new advance. This is a point I disagree, and I already said in other theads why.

Honestly if you think about it. Do you think the men's movement is doing great at the moment? I would hardly say so. The men's movement at the moment is a small movement which is also mainly online. So to call it a movement might be hard to say. Feminism is still triumphing, though maybe less than it use to be but I would not claim this to be the cause of the men's movement. I would simply claim this because less and less women feel attracted to feminism and because maybe things have already been accomplished by feminism.
I am a pure masculist, and I wish the best for the men's movement, but IMO if it will ever be a serious movement it will have to do better than this.
I am not saying: quit, because it is useless.
I am saying: We need change, because the way things are going at the moment is not that great.

Anyway, this thread is about the male pill, not about the men's movement.
t is time men start behaving like men again and stand up for their rights, instead of behaving like conformist push-overs.

The Gonzman

Well, I'll tell you what:  Weak-will, spineless, pussy-whipped pseudo men who enjoy being ordered around by their little snip of a wife or girlfriend will still be able to do so even with the male pill.  It won't hinder them in the least.

BUT - men who want to be able to be in charge of their own lives will be able to.

It's very strange to me why it is so important to you that those in the latter category not have this power, freedom, and choice.

I find this to be remarkable and unlikely for a self-professed masculist who claims to have the same desires of equal power and equal rights under the law that most men and women here do. It's fishy.

Maybe you need to write out your posts and scan them in so we know you are who you say you are, and not some feminist troll pretending to be one of us to disrupt the movement.

(Yes the first three paragraphs are serious.  The last one is an example of how ridiculous you sound in the IndianaJones issue.)
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the Shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am the MEANEST son-of-a-bitch in the valley.

The Biscuit Queen

Yes it is, however I do not think anyone would mind it morphing into a discussion of the movement overall.

I think that the movement is doing great. It is in it's infancy, and for how many people are aware of what is going on, and are willing to stand up and take action, we are making progress.

I do wish more were happening, therefor instead of bitching on-line that people's efforts are not good enough, I take action.

BTW, Roy does not put down others efforts. He is not what we are talking about here.

I submit once again, Gerard, what are you doing for the men's movement that gives you are right to criticize it?

I do believe that you must earn that right.

I just stuck my neck out today, and offered to spend real time helping a man falsely accused of molestation. It will take time, and means getting involved, but it is the right thing to do. We get nowhere by putting down ANY effort, no matter how small. This man may or may not benifit by my help, but at least I am trying.

When is the last time you put your hand out to a brother in need?
he Biscuit Queen
www.thebiscuitqueen.blogspot.com

There are always two extremes....the truth lies in the middle.

FP

Quote from: "Gerard Velthuis"


I have said it from the beginning, unlike what some of you guys have said, feminists WANT the male pill. They can't wait. Just another burden of women that can be shifted to men. You guys think too much in power. I wish I could agree with you guys, I really do, but I am looking through it from the practical / reality perspective, and here men don't see it as power. You guys are too obsessed with the power idea that you are forgetting how things might turn out in REALITY for the AVERAGE man.

It is birth control RESPONSIBILITY. Not birth control POWER.
Just more "responsibility" / burden shifted towards men.


Gerard, I think you're tilting at windmills here. Yes, some feminists seem rather gung ho about the male pill, and I can see why one would be suspicious. I'm sure some are that way because it means they could be less "burdened" with female birth control (which if they or anyone logically thinks it through, they're still burdened with the results if the bc fails, so a wise person if possible covers that angle with bc of their own).

I get your point and it is quite possible that many women will act that way and do view it that way, as that they will still have control sexually but not have to worry about birth control hazards/side effects, its just "another burden on the man, haha!". I just think its foolish to in response to that idea, effectively say, "screw you guys, I'm going home" and thus take your balls home. That does no good for men, its a cop out as it still gives them power and takes power from men. To say women are the only one's who bear a burden in reproduction/parenting is, folly of the highest order and ignorance of current realities. It may take time, education and plain ol getting the shit kicked out of oneself for more men to wake up, but they will. Those who don't, or don't care will pay for their choice.

Others, oh may actually want parity in responsibility (shock, horror, unthinkable I know) for birth control. Given that feminism's bread and butter during its existance has been "equality" (for women only these days*) they just might be more apt to support a male pill publically and then behind closed doors wail about how it will take away much of their powerbase in relationships aka the kids, reproduction choice and sex. Watch what they do, not what they say. Talk is cheap.


Power and responsibility are not antithetical here. Yes, many women like having the power of choice with no responsibility. So do many men I'm sure. In fact I think you do. I understand how you see the current "burden" of birth control swapping wholesale to men (and it currently being a burden solely to women is well, totally preposterous and ignorant as mentioned above) with a "male pill" because of many women's attitudes. I just don't see how you can wholesale deny the advantages a male birth control pill will bring to men who don't view it so much as a burden but as a benefit to them. They now have another choice, and with that choice comes...power. Power to not be controlled by a woman who has had all the control in the reproductive game. Whether one educates the "average" non-mra men on that new "power" of reproductive control or even if they view it as a burden, ultimately many will benefit.




*Debateable point conceded.  Congnitive dissonance not withstanding for those feminists who publically dislike the male pill aka "how can you expect us to trust our man to take a pill?". "Good for the goose, good for the gander" or equality is of course not in their vocabulary.

Gerard Velthuis

GK, IJ wrote things that were kinda suspicious. I wasn't the only one who thought so, there were more people.
If my behaviour is very suspicious I would have gotten comments from the day I posted here, just like IJ, which was not the case.
Also I have mainly gotten complaints because I don't agree with you guys that the male pill will be THE greatest thing to men since I don't know when.
If I didn't disagreed with you guys, we wouldn't be in such a battle as the battle we are in right now.

I never said the male pill will be of no use to any men, all I have said is that the male pill will, on average, not be a great gift to men. It will benefit some men but it will not benefit many men.

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BUT - men who want to be able to be in charge of their own lives will be able to.


Yes but how many men think like you and me do?? 2%, maybe 5% ??
My opinion is that many men do not think like you do, and thus such men will not have much benefit from such a pill. It will be "shoved down their troat" by their spouses (well this is a very extreme exaggeration but the point is that their spouses will "make" them, in one way or the other, to take the pill (e.g. by witholding sex, or simply to stay mad at her spouse, and many times women will win this battle from men. I say this in practical terms, i.e. what actually IS happening, not what COULD be happening (this is your point of view).

Just to give one example, I really don't want to go into this again.
You say that some men are forced into marriage because they got a baby which was unintended, or you say some men are forced to pay child support for a baby which is unintended.
These men are often idiots! Men who don't give two fucks about anything.
What makes you think they suddenly will use a male pill????
Most of these times such men are irresponsible and even if there was a male pill, it can be argued whether such men would use it. I believe most of such men will not.

So who are the men who will use the male pill??? My opinion is:
1) men like the men at this board, which is maybe 1 or 2% of men in total
2) Men who are married or who are in a steady relationship. In such a relationship often the woman doesn't want to have children of her own (at such a time) and if she does often she will discuss this with her spouse. However according to you women don't do this, according to you all women try to get pregnant behind their spouses' backs.
So it is a steady relationship in which neither wants to have children at the moment and instead of the woman being on the pill, now some men will also be on the pill. I believe this situation accounts for 60% of the men "allegable'' for using the male pill.
3) it might help bachelors as well. However most women don't want to take chances and will be on the pill themselves. Also a part of the men simply don't give a fuck or believe (or want to believe) the woman is on the pill, and the rest use condoms.

BQ wrote:

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BTW, Roy does not put down others efforts. He is not what we are talking about here.


BQ, Roy was much more rude than I was when it comes to IJ, thank you very much. I tried to withold myself to a certain point.

Maybe I am not doing all great things like I could have but I can see what is wrong with the men's movement. To correct this, it will take a lot of time and effort, and right now I don't see the conditions being worth it, especially because I fear a lack of support as I have noticed, also in other cases.
So my opinion is, nobody will probably want to take the role of initiater because it will take a lot of time and efforts and one can question the outcome (i.e. will it be worth it?). Right now I am unsure about all this, and I wonder if this will ever change. Yes there might be some small progress, and this is great, but is this enough for the future. Is it enough to make the men's movement noticable and respected and being listened to? I wonder.

My opinion is, at the moment, I wonder if the men's movement will ever develop into an actual movement. Right now it seems it will stay an online movement.
I wish things could be different, I really do, but this is what I am seeing at the moment.
t is time men start behaving like men again and stand up for their rights, instead of behaving like conformist push-overs.

Darth Sidious

Quote from: "The Biscuit Queen"
I submit once again, Gerard, what are you doing for the men's movement that gives you are right to criticize it?

I do believe that you must earn that right.


Are you asking that same question of other vocal critics of the men's movement on this site?  I really do not need to name names.

One does not need any qualifications to criticize the men's movement, especially if it is in the wrong.  The one who takes action is more valuable to the cause than a mere critic; I will grant you that.

The Biscuit Queen

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Maybe I am not doing all great things like I could have but I can see what is wrong with the men's movement. To correct this, it will take a lot of time and effort, and right now I don't see the conditions being worth it, especially because I fear a lack of support as I have noticed, also in other cases.
So my opinion is, nobody will probably want to take the role of initiater because it will take a lot of time and efforts and one can question the outcome (i.e. will it be worth it?). Right now I am unsure about all this, and I wonder if this will ever change. Yes there might be some small progress, and this is great, but is this enough for the future. Is it enough to make the men's movement noticable and respected and being listened to? I wonder.

My opinion is, at the moment, I wonder if the men's movement will ever develop into an actual movement. Right now it seems it will stay an online movement.
I wish things could be different, I really do, but this is what I am seeing at the moment.



SO in other words, the men's movement is a mess, but you are not going to dirty your hands helping it. Good for you. And you are here why?

All movements started small. Every last one. They start with a few men or women in a room realizing there is a problem. Then it grows. Some movements take longer than others. We have never faced a problem like this in the history of the world.

IJ to me was ZERO threat. The worst that could happen was he was a feminist getting some advice she didn't want to hear.

You, on the other hand, are being  a killjoy. You are a morale squasher.

If I had to pick between the two, a spy or a moral squasher, I would take the former every time. A spy will get bored because we are on the up and up, we have nothing to hide.  You will encourage people to do nothing. You will bring others down to inactivity and discourage any activism.

Gerard, you did not answer my question. What are you personally doing that is any better or more important than those you critique? I want to hear you say it.


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Are you asking that same question of other vocal critics of the men's movement on this site? I really do not need to name names.


If I saw anyone else saying that what individuals are doing is inconsequential and insignificant while doing NOTHING themselves, than yes, I would pose that same question. Did I miss someone?

I myself spoke of needing to put more effort out. That we had no business trying violence when we have not as a group tried anything else on a large scale.  However, I AM doing things to help the movement. I put my money where my mouth is. On line and in real life.

Not everyone can do everything, including me. But I notice those who do the least, talk the most. THAT is my issue.


For a long time I did not do a whole lot in real life. I also did not go around claiming everyone who did was wasting their time.
he Biscuit Queen
www.thebiscuitqueen.blogspot.com

There are always two extremes....the truth lies in the middle.

Gerard Velthuis

BQ,

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IJ to me was ZERO threat.


I never said IJ was a threat. I just questioned what he / she was saying was actually true.

Also, I am criticizing the men's movement not because I want to stop it or end it, but just to notify that IMO we need a (radical) change if we want to accomplish anything (serious) as a movement.
Yes I understand all movement start at the bottom. And I agree, I also agree there is some progress, small as it may be.
However all I am pointing out is that the way things are going now, it is simply no way near enough. We don't need to stop, we need to change.
t is time men start behaving like men again and stand up for their rights, instead of behaving like conformist push-overs.

The Biscuit Queen

OK, thanks, point made. Did you need anything or are you going to just keep flappin those lips?
he Biscuit Queen
www.thebiscuitqueen.blogspot.com

There are always two extremes....the truth lies in the middle.

Darth Sidious

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Did I miss someone?


How about Devia, for example?  What has she done to "earn her right" to criticize the men's movement as often as she has?

Look, people can criticize the men's movement if they wish to.  No one needs a "right" to do it.  If you have such a problem with people expressing criticism of it, why not just ignore the criticisms?

Gerard Velthuis

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OK, thanks, point made. Did you need anything or are you going to just keep flappin those lips?


What kind of reply is this?? If you want to have a discussion then plz come up with some decent arguments.

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How about Devia, for example? What has she done to "earn her right" to criticize the men's movement as often as she has?

Look, people can criticize the men's movement if they wish to. No one needs a "right" to do it. If you have such a problem with people expressing criticism of it, why not just ignore the criticisms?


Thank you Darth Sidious. At least I am trying to give some positive criticism, i.e. I am trying to show how it could be better or how it could be changed or that it should be changed.
A person like Devia, simply criticizes the men's movement in every aspect simply because she is a feminist. That is destructive criticism.
See the difference now?
t is time men start behaving like men again and stand up for their rights, instead of behaving like conformist push-overs.

The Biscuit Queen

Devia never claimed to be a mens rights activist, or a masculist. She as much as admits she is here mainly out of self interest and entertainment.

When non-mras, feminists, etc,  attack the movement, it simply acts as a catylist for us to do more. Sticks and stones and I'll show you and all.  When an MRA attacks from within....that is a different story-sort of like cancer.

My above reply was feeling like you have been continuing to say the same crap for the last month or so. You criticize someone's efforts, then pretend it is for all our own good.

You are doing NOTHING for the men's movement. Worse than nothing, for you are trying to sabotage it, regardless of your spoken intentions.

Since I am repeating myself, and I do not like redundant posting, I will not reply again until you have something new to add.


I do not ignore the criticisms from within because I am afraid it will discourage people from doing more. That is the ONLY effect Gerard can expect from the sort of comments he makes. It burns me that we all try so hard to make change, then in comes someone ...well, won't help anyways, no hope...all a bunch of losers...

Bullshit. We are not wasting our time.
he Biscuit Queen
www.thebiscuitqueen.blogspot.com

There are always two extremes....the truth lies in the middle.

Darth Sidious

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Devia never claimed to be a mens rights activist, or a masculist. She as much as admits she is here mainly out of self interest and entertainment.


I did not know that, but I am not really shocked to find that out.

Russ2d

I both agree and disagree with G-

Male and female bodies are NOT designed to utilize opposite sex hormones as primary; opposite sex hormones balance (antagonistic relationship) primary ones but do NOT produce appropriate sex characteristics and must be filtered out by the liver.

In this regard G is correct- there will be side effects (comparing such with eating vegetables is idiotic) and possibly serious ones, but no more then what women face.

I personally will not take it but I absolutely think it SHOULD be an option for men just as women have.

In that regard I disagree with G

Gerard Velthuis

BQ,

I have indeed criticized several aspects about the men's movement. I didn't do this because I feel the men's movement should quit because it is a lost effort.
I just feel the men's movement can do better.

I wish the best for the men's movement but at the moment I am not very content about it.  understand it is a new movement and all movements start small, still I think the men's movement is underperforming.

Just to give an example. I still find that someone should of stuck up for Summers. All the time we are criticizing feminists that say women are being held back in science and physics and feminists who claim women need extra funding and are held back by male peers or simply men in general.
We also complain that there is a double standard that it is forbidden to say men might have an advantage in beta occupations and studies while it is perfectly acceptable to say women have an advantage in communication and alpha occupations and studies.
We are always complaining about it, here at forums such as these, and when finally a man stands up and says it in public, nobody here or anywhere else sticks up for the man.
I find this a failure of the men's movement.

I don't think the men's movement is doing great at the moment. We could do much better. I just hope the men's movement will not remain an online movement but I haven't seen great progress yet.

That doesn't mean I despise the men's movement, nor does this mean that I think it is best we just quit. I think it is always better than nothing and I am glad that at least now there is an opportunity for men to discuss things with each other.
I just hope someday it will be more and greater than this. At the rate things are going now I am not sure we will make it.
If you ask anybody on the streets and ask about a men's movement I don't there will be many that will understand what you are talking about or actually recognize what you are saying. That is not a good sign. I have said it from the beginning, it is important we influence common people. It is great we are a cohesive group with similar beliefs and thoughts but we are a small group. Eventually our goal should be to influence common people. When this happens you can talk about real progress.

I don't care if you reply back. My intention is not to have a discussion with you, I owe you nothing. Further apparently you have problems understanding what I am saying and because of that I am the one who needs to repeat myself over and over again, and I am also getting tired of that.

If you think the men's movement is doing great at the moment than you are living in your own dream.
t is time men start behaving like men again and stand up for their rights, instead of behaving like conformist push-overs.

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