Men Speak Out About Feminism

[Mr. Bad]

Apologies if this is a duplicate post, but I thought that some here might be interested in this: Raising the Volume on What Men Think About Feminism

'FEMINISM has turned women into selfish, spoiled, spiteful, powerless victims," shrieked the email. "Men are talking, can't you hear it? Marriage rates are down, birthrates are down, men are using women for their pleasure and then leaving them."

If it was only one of a handful of emails I received, I might not have given it much thought. But there were many more. "I do not think it's men or boys that need reforming. I think women are the main instigators of hate against one half of the population," wrote another man.

[SIAM]

Interesting article.  I'm glad it got published, and sadly not surprised by the feminist author's faux shock at the problems men face today. It's the usual "who? me??" false innocence of someone who very well knows what's been going on over the last 40 years and more.  Still, I guess this article shows you cannot stop the tide - even if men are not speaking up as much as they should (a perfectly valid point she raised, which I 100% agree with), men are voting with their feet - literally through emigration, and also voting against marriage and children by not becoming fathers and not getting married.

What's also interesting is she completely washes her hands of responsibility in actually helping men, even though there are plenty of female MRAs out there. She basically says "your problem men, you deal with it".  She gives away her selfishness with that attitude.

[no2fembots]

What's also interesting is she completely washes her hands of responsibility in actually helping men, even though there are plenty of female MRAs out there. She basically says "your problem men, you deal with it".  She gives away her selfishness with that attitude.

You noticed that too, eh?  

What pisses me off big time is that this same line (I've heard it a million times in my personal dealings with the Evil Empire) is used to excuse wimin of any responsibility or culpability for any negative results of the equality wars, and secondly to give themselves a much undeserved pat on the back.  In essence they are saying they single handedly did it all themselves - the revolution and all that.  When in fact, they would not have gone past the bra burning stages if MEN had not allowed, promoted, sympathized, and supported their cause.

Ya, right, Sista's!

[woof]

Interesting article.  I'm glad it got published, and sadly not surprised by the feminist author's faux shock at the problems men face today. It's the usual "who? me??" false innocence of someone who very well knows what's been going on over the last 40 years and more.  Still, I guess this article shows you cannot stop the tide - even if men are not speaking up as much as they should (a perfectly valid point she raised, which I 100% agree with), men are voting with their feet - literally through emigration, and also voting against marriage and children by not becoming fathers and not getting married.

What's also interesting is she completely washes her hands of responsibility in actually helping men, even though there are plenty of female MRAs out there. She basically says "your problem men, you deal with it".  She gives away her selfishness with that attitude.

Actually she is quoting from an email I sent her about her question of why men won't debate feminism...........here is the rest of it.



Dear Sushi,

Just like Maureen Dowd, you are so stuck up that you can't see the forest for the trees.
Maureen Dowd writes a book Are Men Necessary?, and then wonders why men aren't interested in her........LOL........please!!........hmm, let see, from a feminist perspective..........oh, it must be because men are afraid of women who are "intelligent", and have money.....ok, if you say so.....
Yea, I can understand why as a feminist you would be upset that men don't want to engage in a conversation about why their lives don't revolve around your life.

Just like in what you wrote in your article, it's mens failings thats the problem with feminism. Since feminism is about women, why is it up to men to do anything?
Women empowering women, this is the call of feminism, but in the last 30 years or so, the feminist have turned all men into sexual predators, abusive husbands, child molesters, and rapist. This is the feminist movement greatest accomplishment,  to make men responsible for women.
Since women are victims of men, then it's up to men to change, because, "whats a woman.....I mean victim to do?......after all you are powerless.....men have all of the power over women.

Apparently feminist believe that the more they insult, and bully men, the more power, and respect they will garner.
Could be........hmm, that men are tired of hearing about all of the ways that women are suppressed, oppressed, abused, objectified, add nausim.......after 30 years of the me, me, me, what about me feminist movement, even most women today want nothing to do with modern feminism.

This is a part of the article she wrote:
"Sadly, women are so busy analysing their own roles that insufficient attention is being paid to the failings of men. No one laments the fact that some men are so low on the evolutionary scale their desire for tarty bimbos or dumbed-down housewives is fuelling a bizarre objectification of women. Men need to discuss whether their behaviour and demands need reform. Their cowardly opting out of discussions that relate to feminism is apparent in their silence."

In my humble opinion feminism has turned women into selfish, spoiled, spiteful, powerless victims.

Oh......and by the way, men are talking, can't you hear it?
Marriage rates are down, birth rates are down, men are using women for their own pleasure, and then leaving them alone.

"A woman needs man, like a fish needs a bicycle."........I love this quote!


xxxxxx

[angelssk7]

My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out. Put your case. It will stand or fall on its merit. Stop being scared. There are plenty of women willing to listen. And if you get howled down, get up and say it again. That's how women got their voices heard in the 1970s.

Well, the gauntlet has been thrown down eh?

[SIAM]

My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out. Put your case. It will stand or fall on its merit. Stop being scared. There are plenty of women willing to listen. And if you get howled down, get up and say it again. That's how women got their voices heard in the 1970s.

Hmmm, and women had their henchmen to do their dirty work too, as well as  approval of any complaint from their sisterhood.   In any public arena, men are supposed to act like pussy-whipped nutbars at all times.  Speaking out for men's rights makes you sound like a dork in a conventional setting.  Not so for women, nor has it ever been so.  They've always had the allowance and "social acceptability" of their complaint.  Men don't stick up for other men for this reason - it's just not acceptable for men to complain specifically about men's lack of rights.  Yes, that's men's fault to a degree - but it's also a legacy of the way society has been set-up - after falling on deaf ears for so long, and after facing so much ridicule, many men just internalise it all. I still think men should say FUCK IT and speak out, but I totally understand when men don't.

[nope]

I sent her another email in response to this article of hers on the 22nd:

   Subject:    Women really are the bad guys (Raising the volume)
   Date:    28 December 2005 12:38:38 GMT
   To:      [email protected]


You've said some totally incorrect things.

You said: "the writers believed the pendulum had swung too far in favour of women"

No, many men (perhaps most of the ones who reply to you) believe the "pendulum" was never in the favour of men. We beleive it's simply swung from slightly in favour of women (a century or so ago), to hugely in favour of women.

You say "They feel" a lot. Which is true, but just as importantly is that we KNOW. We have all the real world experience AND all the studies we need to prove it. It's as much an intellectual thing as an emotional thing. Get yourself an education and read "The Myth of Male Power" by Warren Farrell, because really you look like a totally ignorant fool.

"My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out. Put your case."

Really? In reality, speaking out will lose you your job, and friends and perhaps your career. Society reacts by ostracising you and ridiculing you. There really is a matriarchy in control of society. I myself have been rejected by more discussion groups I can remember (well I can think of 5 off-hand), simply for speaking out reasonable logical concerns that are backed up by the real world.

It's OK for the members there to throw all sorts of potty-mouth insults at me, accuse me of being gay, tell me I'm ugly (Which I'm not), tell me I can't get laid, etc etc, in response to me raising logical factual questions about how males are being discriminated against. THAT is just perfectly accepted by the people who run the discussion groups. Why? Because they think I deserve it. Why they think I deserve it I have no idea, I can only *guess* that it's because the moderators think evil females are to be worshipped and protected above all else.

But I am not even allowed to even respond to these abuse even reasonably, or else I will be banned.

That is so unbelievably unfair.

How do you deal with an ultimatum like that?

It's not a standard you hold yourself to even. Women in the 1970s were already protected and privileged beings. There was no discrimination against women for at least 45 years now. Women were helped by men, listened by them, encouraged by them, paid by them, to say what they wanted no matter how nasty and unfair and unreasonable it was.

It's not just me that is getting this total ultimatums from the matriarchy. It is a very common pattern, even for well established academics! ANYONE who questions the matriarchy will receive vile abuse FROM the establishment. Abuse so low, fierce and unfair, that society normally would reject the abuser! But no! It's OK in this case, because it's a MAN who is rationally and fairly questioning the matriarchy!!!!

So, basically you've warped reality. You've said that women had the same situation. NO THEY DIDN'T. They had the OPPOSITE SITUATION.

* Women: Promoted, listened to and paid for to say unreasonably hateful nasty unfair things.
* Men: Abused, rejected, careers ruined for saying reaonable fair patient things. Abuse that normally would merit the abuser being rejected by society!

Don't even try this lie. It's such an insulting lie I really feel total hatred for you that you even dared speak it.

Here is an article written by Jeffrey Asher, a professor who lost his career for questioning the matriarchy: http://elfdata.com/darkforum/viewtopic.php?t=627 I can find many many more examples like this if you like. Even Warren Farrell has written about his own being rejected by the establishment (the matriarchy), and how this ended him up losing jobs and ending up in huge debt.

At this point I know where you will be. You will be feeling, "no, but I *must not* accept that it really is the fault of us females oppressing males, because that will give the game away, that will acknowledge their problems and give males a chance to fix things. I must do anything, everything I can to lie."

If you were a fair person, you'd do this:

1) Admit you were factually WRONG. (Where you said the situation women faced is the same and not actually reversed.)
2) Admit you said the things you said because you are an evil liar, not because you were innocently mistaken.


I'll quickly address the others: "Perhaps it is governments that are not listening to men, rather than women."

No, it really is women. Women really are the bad guys. Until you deal with this fact, nothing will improve.

"Finally, some men were unsure of their role in society.". I'm not unsure. I know what I want, and I know it's not acceptable according to female values and today's society's values, even though it is acceptable according to equality.

Since when has equality ever guided females choices and demands? Get a grip will you? Females have only ever been interested in a matriarchy, not equality.

[Sir Jessy of Anti]

Hi Theo!  It's been a long time since we gathered for the first international Anti-Chive convention.  

[mcc99]

"If you knew Sushi like I knew Sushi..."

Well, anyway, Mlle Das remains a feminist and an apologist for the abuse of men, period.  Her publication of this commentary however shows she is not immune to the effects of getting what she asked for.  She would never, and few people ever would, openly and fully retract their long-established opinions even in the face of overwhelming evidence that they are wrong, and indeed, she spends more than a little space doing as described in the other posts-- trying to re-cast the comments and justify/rationalize, just like anyone caught in such an untenable position as feminists must inevitably find themselves.  I am willing to bet though her regulars will see at least a slight shift in her tone as time goes on... but don't expect her to see the light any time soon.  She is a feminist, and even if she were to live in defeat the way the Nazis did after WWII, just like them, she may regret having lost the struggle, but she would not really ever truly change her mind.  Like the Hitler Youth, she's ruined for life.

[dr e]

Hey MCC!  Good to see you.

E

[Prometheus]

First, I will give credit where its due:  For a feminist to even attempt what she probably views as an objective article that quotes criticisms from men about feminism is virtuallly unheard of.  I cannot envision Maureen Dowd or any other prominent female jounalist/editorialists that I know of  ever doing this.  Surely some others have, and if so I would be interested if anyone has references.

However, after my initial optimism over this article, I processed it and find several disturbing, (though predictable) problems with it. First, she clearly talks down to us when she says

I asked them to engage in debates relating to "feminist issues" and show they understood that equality, women's rights, the work/life imbalance, the declining birthrate, sexual politics and relationships generally are important to everybody, not just women.

How utterly disdainful and patronizing!  Her tone and the way she phrases this  is as though she is challenging us crude, ignorant males to prove that we have the wherewithall  to understand issues that obiously affect everyone. Well f*** you too, sweetie, I'm happy to debate these issues, but I got nothin' to you like you seem to think I do.
She goes on to say that many of the email responses were "considered arguments".  Not real arguments mind you, just considered arguments by us dumb males. Subtle, but then again not.

Then she has the nerve to say that menfelt as though men constituted the majority of the unemployed, homeless, victims of industrial accidents and suicides etc.  This is like saying that women feel that they are more likely than men to be victims of rape or death in child birth.  Dear Sushi, I hate to break the news to you, but I think that in both cases the majority numbers are pretty clear and it is not a matter of feeling this or that.

Then she goes on to supposedly identify why men don't engage in the debate about feminist issues:

They were scared of being howled down by aggressive feminists who dismissed their views.

Whoa there a minute girl!  I would venture to say there is scarcely a man on this site or on the entire planet who is scared of such a thing. No we don't care about being howled down by angry feminists, and indeed we fully expect that they will dismiss our views.  No, we are not afraid of that, we are concerned about loosing our girlfriends or wives if they continually hear us say things they don't agree with. We are concerned about how we will be treated by our female colleagues and supervisors, and also about being castigated by males in authority who are brainwashed by the feminist matriarchy.  And as mentioned in a post above, these are not hollow concerns, as many men have lost their jobs and relationships over speaking out on such issues.

My response?  Get over it...

This quote was nicely responed to in the above posts, and great points made.  Yes it is true that women who started the feminist movement had to be brave to speak up and they took lots of guff and abuse. But she could at least aknowledge the fact that we men are up against a matriarchal culture and this is the context that we have to speak out in.  Then again, she could never acknowledge what she does not recognize.

[/quote]Perhaps it is governments that are not listening to men, rather than women.

Yes, and perhaps that is because 1)  there are more female voters than male voters, so guess who the politicians are going to listen to?(yet it is females who are given the minority status advantage of affirmative action) 2) The feminist lobby has a death grip on the government (and especially on the democratic party in the US) when it comes to women's issues. Did you ever think of that, dearest Sushi?  Hmm...what a revelation!

Men should also let common decency be their guide to appropriate behaviour. Being a decent human being shouldn't be that hard.

Well first of all she seems to be implying that men as a whole are not decent human beings (like all women surely must be!), and that apparently our behaviour is largely inappropriate.  And just who is it that decides the appropriateness or inappropriateness of one's behavior?  Or is all this just me just putting words in her mouth?  In any case the next sentence about being a decent human being reminds me of a quote that I can't quite remember (perhaps someone with a better memory can remember the exact quote), but it goes something like this:  Sometimes it takes an extraordinary person to behave like a decent human being. Yes, it shouldn't be that difficult to behave like a decent human being, but sadly, in the world in which we live, it often proves difficult- for both men and women.

When the shouting from our respective corneres is over, perhaps resentment from both sides will melt.

Well it is hard to argue with that.  At least she gets conciliatory at the end for a moment.  Too bad she does so only after having gotten her digs in.

Can I get an Amen?[/b]

[Dave K]

:oops:

[The Biscuit Queen]

Me again.

Hey mcc,(and everyone else) in two weeks we are having a movie night in the Finger Lakes, about an hour from Henrietta. If you are interested in coming, please PM me. We only have one person who is coming, and that is not in stone. Do I smell or something?
:?

[LSBeene]

Nah you don't smell.

How come I don't invited to movie night?  Sheesh, what's an ocean and a few thousand miles between friends.

This woman's disdainful tone after she GOT responses is exactly why more men don't engage feminists in debates.

Steven

[The Biscuit Queen]

Beene! How are ya?  So, you like sand better than snow?

You know, you could fly into NY on your way home to Alaska and hang out for a while.