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Response to Mr. Bad re: Farrell, Koss, and Archer

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dr e:
Amp - Wasn't it Koss who said:
--- Quote ---"rape represents an extreme behavior but one that is on a continuum with normal male behavior within the culture."
--- End quote ---


So here we seem to have a woman who thinks that normal male behavior includes rape.  Don't you think that anyone with this sort of thinking would be a biased researcher on the topic of rape?

KellyMB:
Ampersand, Mr Bad, Quentin0352, et al. Thanks, this is a really good thread, a real debate. No Ginmars or NYMOM's to hurl obscenities, instead of ideas. No ad hominum attacks. I for one am glad that Amp came over here to debate. I disagree with him almost completly, but I think his being here is really bringing out the best at SYG. Keep it up, there is a lot more to debate!

Factory:
While I completely think Amp is an emasculated woman-firster (you'd have to be in my place to understand the context of this remark...suffice it to say it's not meant as an insult) I have gained a fair measure of respect for him.  Definitely a LOT more than I would extend to the shreiking Harpy's on his Blog gleefully dividing up the territory amongst thamselves it seems.

The recurring issue I see continually in these debates (which ARE informative and entertaining) is an increasing focus on semantics.  The Micro replaces the Macro these days.  Point is, men are discriminated against...repeatedly, with great enthusiasm, and BY LAW.  If discrimination is wrong...why was the current discriminatory regime put in place?

If equality means equality of outcome...why is it OK if men fare poorly in school (which shows a STRONG correlation to changing educational priorities)?

If equality means anything AT ALL other than "more priveleges for women ", why has nothing been done to address the myriad of pressing issues that face men?

And Amp...if these things ARE important...how many more "women's issues" need to be addressed before it's OK to address men's issues in a meaningful (and respectful) way?  You know...one where we don't blame men?

Mr. Bad:
Ok, I've accessed the 1987 Koss study* funded in part by the Ms. Foundation and have a few initial comments.  I haven't had a chance to review Koss' discussion and conclusions, so I'll present that later.  For now let's look at her methodology and results.

First, the most obvious problem is that Ms. Foundation staffers participated in the administration of the study, which raises serious red flags vis-a-vis conflict of interest issues.  This is like having a drug company who funds a clinical trial of one of their new drugs participate in the adminstration of that trial.  'Nuff said on that score.

Next, Koss admits her sample is not representative, not even of colleges and universities in the U.S.  For example, she showed that New England and the Southwest were overrepresented by approximately double their national enrollment figures and that the West sample was only about 1/3 of what it should have been in a representative sample of colleges and universities in the U.S.  Thus, we likely have some signficant bias in the sample due to the overrepresentation of New England and the Southwest and underrepresentation of the West.  

Another problem was with the survey itself.  Although it was validated for the men included in the study (yes, you'd never know it from the feminist rhetoric, but men were indeed measured.  More on this later), no attempt was made to validate the women's responses.  The investigators were suspicious of men's honesty vis-a-vis responding so the did follow-up interviews with a sample of the men to test validity; on the other hand, the investigators trusted the female participants implicitly.  This is an of itself demonstrates investigator bias.  However, to their credit, the male respondents who were tested for validity reponded at the 93% level.  That is, 93% of the men gave the exact same responses on the self-reported survey as the did when interviewed; in the rest of the cases at least one response differed.  As I said, no attempt was made to validate the female responses.  

The above is important because the results for men and women differ drastically.  For women, 6.5% percent of respondents reported being raped during the previous 12 month period (this is likely where the "one in four" factoid comes from.  If you take that rate and muliply it by 4 years - the usual period a person is an undergrad in college - you get about 25%.  However, this is not a valid method to calculate this probability.), 10.1% report attempted rape, 11.5% report "sexual coercion" and 27.8% report "unwanted sexual contact."  However, for men - whose responses were validated - the numbers are much lower:  0.7% report perpetrating what the law defines as rape and 3.2% report perping rape under Koss' broader definitions of rape, which includes legal rape, intercourse while the woman was intoxicated, and "nonconsensual forcible oral or anal penetration."  For sexual victimization (i.e., all categories included in this study, from rape to "attempted fondling") since the age of 14, 46.3% of women reported no victimization and 74.8% of men reported no victimizing.  For rape, 15.4% of women reported being victimized and 4.4% of men report perpetrating.  Clearly the numbers reported by Koss, et al. show that 1) women are not raped as often as the "1 in 4" myth claims, and that 2) a relatively small number of men are perpetrating acts of sexual victimization.  

As I said, I'll read the rest of the article later, but it appears clear at least to me that feminist activists have misrepresented Koss' work.  Which BTW looks within reasonable academic standards, at least for the social sciences.  However, due to serious methodological problems, generalizing these results to the population at large is not appropriate.  

Reference:
Koss, Mary P., Christine A. Gidycz, and Nadine Wisniewski, (1987) "The Scope of Rape: Incidence and Prevalence of Sexual Aggression and Victimization in a National Sample of Higher Education Students." The Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology v 55 (2) pp. 162-170.

(edited once for formatiing and once for clarity)

FP:

--- Quote from: "KellyMB" ---Ampersand, Mr Bad, Quentin0352, et al. Thanks, this is a really good thread, a real debate. No Ginmars or NYMOM's to hurl obscenities, instead of ideas. No ad hominum attacks. I for one am glad that Amp came over here to debate. I disagree with him almost completly, but I think his being here is really bringing out the best at SYG. Keep it up, there is a lot more to debate!
--- End quote ---



"I came here for an argument!
Oh, I'm sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 12A down the hall."




:D

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