Response to Mr. Bad re: Farrell, Koss, and Archer

Started by ampersand, Jan 04, 2006, 07:07 AM

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dr e

I also had a quick look at the 87 Koss article and have a few observations.  

One of the first things that struck me was that the questions were indeed asked of both men and women though we never hear a peep about men who have been raped.  It looked like it was usually about 4-1 women to men in frequency of reported rape/coercion etc but you never hear a thing about the men who are victims.  Why is that?

Another troublesome observation was that all of the questions having to do with rape and sexual assault, coercion etc were all directly addressed to women!  Even though these were given to men to answer the questions said something like "Have you ever had a man do this or that to you."  Perhaps they adjusted the questionairre and the ones the men filled out had questions specifically about women perps but there was no reference to this that I saw so my assumption is that the men was asked questions that were worded specifically for women.  Very odd and very much a contaminating problem is this is correct.

From the little I have read by Koss prior to this it seems that she has some fairly strong ideas about men and masculinity.  I wholeheartedly agree with Mr X that asking her to do a research study on rape would be like asking Bush to do a study on weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.  They both seem to have a vested interest in the outcome.  I prefer researchers who seek a balanced understanding of an issue.  I don't think that Koss could be accused of that.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Mr. Bad

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
I also had a quick look at the 87 Koss article and have a few observations.  

One of the first things that struck me was that the questions were indeed asked of both men and women though we never hear a peep about men who have been raped.  It looked like it was usually about 4-1 women to men in frequency of reported rape/coercion etc but you never hear a thing about the men who are victims.  Why is that?


Well E., that's because the investigators were not measuring sexual victimization of men.  Despite the gender-neutral title of the article, the study assumed that all victims were women and all perps were men.  Thus, the discrepancies both of us noted between women's vs. men's reporting reflect answers to different questions.  See my comments below.

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Another troublesome observation was that all of the questions having to do with rape and sexual assault, coercion etc were all directly addressed to women!  Even though these were given to men to answer the questions said something like "Have you ever had a man do this or that to you."  Perhaps they adjusted the questionairre and the ones the men filled out had questions specifically about women perps but there was no reference to this that I saw so my assumption is that the men was asked questions that were worded specifically for women.  Very odd and very much a contaminating problem is this is correct.


Actually E., the women were asked questions worded specifically for victims while the men were asked questions worded specifically for perps.  From the article:

Quote from: "Koss, et al."
This survey is a selfreport instrument designed to reflect various degrees of sexual aggression and victimization. During actual administration, separate wordings were used for women and for men. However, for purposes of demonstration, the female wording is presented in the following sample item and the male wording is indicated in brackets: "Have you ever had [engaged in] sexual intercourse when you [the woman] didn't want to because a man [you] used some degree of physical force (twisting your [her] arm, holding you [her] down, etc.) to make you [her]?" The text of all 10 items (female wording) can be found in Table 3, which is discussed further in the results section


Thus, a priori women were assumed to be victims and men perps.  The study was designed with this outcome as a given.

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
From the little I have read by Koss prior to this it seems that she has some fairly strong ideas about men and masculinity.  I wholeheartedly agree with Mr X that asking her to do a research study on rape would be like asking Bush to do a study on weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.  They both seem to have a vested interest in the outcome.  I prefer researchers who seek a balanced understanding of an issue.  I don't think that Koss could be accused of that.


From what I've seen in this article, I couldn't agree more.
"Men in teams... got the human species from caves to palaces. When we watch men's teams at work, we pay homage to 10,000 years of male achievements; a record of vision, ingenuity and Herculean labor that feminism has been too mean-spirited to acknowledge."  Camille Paglia

dr e

Thanks Mr Bad.  I sure did mix that one up.  I thought that they were asking the same questions to both the men and the women.  How progressive!  No such luck.  As you point out the women got the victim questionaire and the men got the perp questionaire.  My bad.      :bawling:
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Mr. Bad

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Thanks Mr Bad.  I sure did mix that one up.  I thought that they were asking the same questions to both the men and the women.  How progressive!  No such luck.  As you point out the women got the victim questionaire and the men got the perp questionaire.  My bad.      :bawling:


Yeah, that's the feminist idea of "equality."  Either that or being presumed guilty until proven innocent is more of that 'male privilege' we keep hearing about.  

I know, I know - just like the Devil, the 'Patriarchy' made me do it!   ;)
"Men in teams... got the human species from caves to palaces. When we watch men's teams at work, we pay homage to 10,000 years of male achievements; a record of vision, ingenuity and Herculean labor that feminism has been too mean-spirited to acknowledge."  Camille Paglia

dr e

Do you know of any studies that ask the exact same questions to men?  I would be curious to see the responses.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Mr. Bad

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Do you know of any studies that ask the exact same questions to men?  I would be curious to see the responses.


Sorry E., I don't know of any studies like that - sexual victimization is not really my thing, so I'm not current on the literature.  However, I do plan on conducting a citation search of the 1987 Koss et al. article to test the hypothesis that others have cited it in peer-reviewed literature, so I'll keep an eye peeled for what you're looking for.  That said, I don' t plan on wasting much more time addressing Amp's challenges, which IMO are fairly lame.
"Men in teams... got the human species from caves to palaces. When we watch men's teams at work, we pay homage to 10,000 years of male achievements; a record of vision, ingenuity and Herculean labor that feminism has been too mean-spirited to acknowledge."  Camille Paglia

The Biscuit Queen

Dr Reena Summers did a study on DV where both genders were asked gender nuetral, specific questions-have you ever slapped your partner, has your partner ever choked you?

The results were aproximately 50/50, with men doing more punching and choking and women doing more weapons and throwing things. Both genders experienced eqtable amounts of abuse.
he Biscuit Queen
www.thebiscuitqueen.blogspot.com

There are always two extremes....the truth lies in the middle.

Mr. Bad

Quote from: "ampersand"
I showed you two clear examples, neither of which you've rebutted in the slightest. I'll repeat what I wrote before:

In Myth of Male Power, Farrell wrote:

Quote from: "Warren Farrell"
A Ms-sponsored study which the mass media widely quoted as saying that 25 percent of all women were raped by the time they were in college used this question to reach the 25 percent figure:

Quote
"Have you given in to sexual intercourse when you didn't want to because you were overwhelmed by a man's continual arguments and pressure?"


Two problems with this passage. First of all, the study in question found that 25% of college women have experienced rape or attempted rape at some time in their life; the number for completed rape is closer to 12%. One could argue that Farrell was just repeating how the study was reported in the mass media, but it's irresponsible to do so without also reporting the correct figure. Besides, Farrell clearly attributes the 25 percent figure to the study itself - it is the study, not the media, which (according to Farrell) "used this question to reach the 25 percent figure." But the study never claimed that 25 percent of women have been raped.


Farrell made it abundantly clear that he was describing how the media reported the Koss study, as your quote above clearly shows and well as the fact that the statement in question appears in Chapter 14 "The Politics of Rape," p. 316, after stating:

Quote from: "Farrel in [i
The Myth of Male Power[/i], p. 316"]A MS-sponsored study which the mass media widely quoted as saying 25% of women were raped by the time they were in college used this question to reach the 25 percent figure
(Verbatim quote from Koss, Table 3, p. 167 follows per your quote above).  

There's absolutely nothing misleading about what Farrell wrote.  In fact, it is your comment above
Quote from: "amp"
One could argue that Farrell was just repeating how the study was reported in the mass media, but it's irresponsible to do so without also reporting the correct figure.
that is incorrect and misleading.  Farrell indeed cites the 25% number for the correct table and question, provides a clear reference to it in the endnotes of Chapter 14, and as the quote shows makes it clear that it was the media that made the equivalence of 25% to actual rapes.  

Quote from: "ampersand"
Second, and more important, problem: The study never used that question for calculating rape prevalence. (The study did contain that question, but used it only to report instances of "pressuring" - not rape.) Anyone could verify this by reading the study itself (The Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology v 55 (2) p. 162-170).


You should be careful when you challenge people to look at the primary literature, because I have and it supports what Farrell et al. have claimed, i.e., that the Koss study was an ideologically biased advocacy piece, not legitimate, rigorous scientific examination.

Overall, in her discussion Koss fluidly moves between her expanded measures of "sexual victimization" (defined as rape, attempted rape, "attempted fondling," etc.) and true rape, which is misleading at best and deliberate fraud at worst.  On p. 168 she states that "the results indicate that, since the age of 14, 27.5% of college women reported experiencing and 7.7% of college men reported perpetrating and act that met the legal definition of rape, which includes attempts."  However, I don't believe that legal definitions of rape actuall do include attempted rape; I believe that attempted rape is a separate crime.

Next, the study did indeed use the question you cite above (question 6, Table 3) for calculating rape.  Koss states in her methods section, p. 165, Scoring procedure:
Quote
The groups labeled 'rape' (yes responses to Items 8, 9, or 10 and any lower numbered items) and "attempted rape" (yes responses to Items 4 or 5 but not to any higher numbered items) included individuals whose experiences met legal definitions of these crimes.
(emphasis mine)

Therefore, question 6 asking about "pressuring" was most definitely included in her calculations for prevalence of "rape."  

Quote from: "ampersand"
So Farrell, in "criticizing" the study, misrepresents both the study's results and its methodology. Although to be fair, this might be the result of extreme carelessness, rather than actual dishonesty.


No, actually, Farrell got it exactly correct (no surprises there) and the feminists who you rely on for your talking points fucked-up and got it wrong.  

Quote from: "ampersand"
Now, you say that you're not interested in Koss because you find her unreliable. But you also said that you found Farrell reliable; therefore, the fact that he badly misrepresented Koss' study should be of interest to you, since it shows that Farrell actually misrepresents what he talks about quite badly.


Koss is unreliable.  As I clearly demonstrate in a previous post and here, she approached the study with bias, conducted the study in a biased manner, and reported her findings and made conclusions in a biased manner.  This paper doesn't pass the smell test on its face, and the closer one looks at it the worse it stinks.

As I said before, in her discussion she fluidly moves between her expanded definitions for "rape," attempted rape, sexual victimization, etc., and valid, legal definitions of rape used by legitimate law enforcement entities and state and federal government.  Thus, she gives the impression (either deliberately or not) that her definitions are in line with legitimate legal entities, which they are not.  Further, she shows her blatant bias and likely sexism by emphasizing potential male dishonesty and/or error re. their responses to the survey, e.g., p. 169 "The findings of the present study demonstrate that men do not admit enough sexual aggression to account for the number  of victimizations reported by women" even though she herself validated the responses for men.  Yet at the same time she trusts the women's responses, never once even addresses the possibility that women might also be making errors or being dishonest in their responses, and didn't even bothered to try to measure the validity of the women's responses, let alone subject them to the same review that she gave the men's responses.

Koss simply made the assumption that while men are untrustworthy, 'women never lie.'

Yeah, right.

Quote from: "ampersand"
The main findings Dr. Koss made about rape (as opposed to about sexual coercion in general) are: One, that rape was much more common than the official data sources at the time indicated.


No.  Koss measured reporting, not actual rape.

Quote from: "ampersand"
Two, that a very large proportion of rapes are never reported to police.


No.  Koss measured the difference between women's responses when they they were free to say whatever they wished vs. their responses when they had the added pressure of the legal system's checks and balances vis-a-vis verification of fact, etc.

Quote from: "ampersand"
Third, that rape is usually committed by someone known to the victim, not by a stranger.


No.  Once again, Koss measured reporting, not actual rape.

The Koss article was feminist-driven and funded, biased advocacy, not rigorous science.  Koss failed to examine all the limitations of her work and failed to explore other explanations for her results because she went in to the research with her conclusions already in mind.  That's not legitimate scientific research.

Nothing in that study or your defense of it changes my impression that feminists are anything other than shameless propagandists and liars.  Feminists have been attacking Farrell ever since he broke ranks with them, but because Farrell is a rigorous academic his work withstands this sort of libel.  

Good luck trying to refute his assessment of the male/female earnings gap.

(edited a couple of times for formatting, etc.)
"Men in teams... got the human species from caves to palaces. When we watch men's teams at work, we pay homage to 10,000 years of male achievements; a record of vision, ingenuity and Herculean labor that feminism has been too mean-spirited to acknowledge."  Camille Paglia

Mr. Bad

(deleted duplicate)
"Men in teams... got the human species from caves to palaces. When we watch men's teams at work, we pay homage to 10,000 years of male achievements; a record of vision, ingenuity and Herculean labor that feminism has been too mean-spirited to acknowledge."  Camille Paglia

The Biscuit Queen

Mr Bad....

:daman:
he Biscuit Queen
www.thebiscuitqueen.blogspot.com

There are always two extremes....the truth lies in the middle.

Sir Jessy of Anti

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Do you know of any studies that ask the exact same questions to men?  I would be curious to see the responses.


Hey Doc, this was quoted earlier in the thread by Amp:
Quote


I do know of one study which did a gender-neutral Koss survey, asking Koss' questions equally of male and female students. The study had a tiny sample size, so it's statistical power is pretty low (as the authors themselves admitted). What they found is that men and women were equally likely to "experience unwanted sexual contact" - but unwanted sexual contact, as the authors used the term, is a broader category than rape, and includes things like giving in to a partner's frequent arguments.

That was the finding the authors emphasized. However, they also found that women were seven and a half times as likely as men to report a partner having attempted or succeeded in using physical force to make them have sex. So I don't think your criticism is really accurate.

(Citation: "Male and female recipients of unwanted sexual contact in a college student sample: prevalence rates, alcohol use, and depression symptoms," in Sex Roles: A Journal of Research, Feb, 1999 by Mary E. Larimer, Amy R. Lydum, Britt K. Anderson, and Aaron P. Turner).
"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand<br /><br />

dr e

Mr Bad - While I agree with most of what you have said I think that this part:

Quote
The groups labeled 'rape' (yes responses to Items 8, 9, or 10 and any lower numbered items) and "attempted rape" (yes responses to Items 4 or 5 but not to any higher numbered items) included individuals whose experiences met legal definitions of these crimes.
(emphasis mine)


Quote
Therefore, question 6 asking about "pressuring" was most definitely included in her calculations for prevalence of "rape."


May be off a bit.  I wonder if what she meant here is that questions 8,9 and 10 would all be indicative of rape but that any lower number would also be included IF one of 8,9, or 10 was selected.  My guess is that Farrell may have slipped up with this and it is no biggie.  Anyone with even half a brain can see that he is an honorable man who goes out of his way to see both sides.  This is in stark contrast to Koss who seems less than endearing to men and the masculine.

I have a bigger problem with the questions 8,9, and 10 and feel that they don't really represent what my sense of a rape is.  Question 10 is about objects other then a penis, could be a finger or whatever.  How many times has any couple been lying around in bed and she says, "no" and giggles and he plants a finger near an orafice and she jerks away laughing.  If you answered yes to question 10 then the above scenario would be counted as a rape.  Duh.  Question 8 leaves a great deal of question also with its idea about alcohol and drugs.  How many women do we know who after a night of drinking have a different perception of the previous night's events?  I think that Sommers points out that 27% of those that Koss declared as victims of rape actually agreed with that assessment.  Sheeesh.  It seems clear that this woman has an agenda.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

Mr. Bad

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Mr Bad - While I agree with most of what you have said I think that this part:

Quote
The groups labeled 'rape' (yes responses to Items 8, 9, or 10 and any lower numbered items) and "attempted rape" (yes responses to Items 4 or 5 but not to any higher numbered items) included individuals whose experiences met legal definitions of these crimes.
(emphasis mine)


Quote
Therefore, question 6 asking about "pressuring" was most definitely included in her calculations for prevalence of "rape."


May be off a bit.  I wonder if what she meant here is that questions 8,9 and 10 would all be indicative of rape but that any lower number would also be included IF one of 8,9, or 10 was selected.


Yes E., that's my interpretation as well, but it still doesn't change the fact that question 6 was indeed included in her calculations for rape prevalence.  Thus, I don't think that Farrell really slipped up; anyone who wants to know the details of the study can readily access it, and Farrell provides a detailed footnote allowing the reader to easily find the article.  Plus, in the context of Chapter 14 in Farrell the Koss study was a small point re. the larger issue of sensationalism and politicization of rape by feminists, the media, etc.

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
I have a bigger problem with the questions 8,9, and 10 and feel that they don't really represent what my sense of a rape is.  Question 10 is about objects other then a penis, could be a finger or whatever.  How many times has any couple been lying around in bed and she says, "no" and giggles and he plants a finger near an orafice and she jerks away laughing.  If you answered yes to question 10 then the above scenario would be counted as a rape.  Duh.  Question 8 leaves a great deal of question also with its idea about alcohol and drugs.  How many women do we know who after a night of drinking have a different perception of the previous night's events?  I think that Sommers points out that 27% of those that Koss declared as victims of rape actually agreed with that assessment.  Sheeesh.  It seems clear that this woman has an agenda.


I agree with you about question 8 re. alcohol and/or drugs, especially considering that most women don't get wasted on their own - they get wasted with a guy and then sleep with that equally- or many times more-wasted guy.  In those cases, which IMO are probably the vast majority, I don't think that either person is more culpable or responsible than the other for anything else other than getting fucked up and doing potentially stupid and regrettable things.  It's certainly unfair to hold the man solely responsible like feminists currently do, as if the woman is a little child who is unable to be held responsible for her behavior and thus have to rely on men to take care of her.  

That said, for the other questions (and arguably #8 too) there is a degree of coercion and/or physical force involved, so to me that is much closer to my own personal definition of "rape" than are the various nebulous "date rape" and "sexual coercion" definitions.

But then, that's just my opinion.
"Men in teams... got the human species from caves to palaces. When we watch men's teams at work, we pay homage to 10,000 years of male achievements; a record of vision, ingenuity and Herculean labor that feminism has been too mean-spirited to acknowledge."  Camille Paglia

ampersand

Quote from: "Dr Evil"
Amp - Wasn't it Koss who said:
Quote
"rape represents an extreme behavior but one that is on a continuum with normal male behavior within the culture."


So here we seem to have a woman who thinks that normal male behavior includes rape.  Don't you think that anyone with this sort of thinking would be a biased researcher on the topic of rape?


No, not really. First of all, I don't think your approach - "to disprove research, you must attack the researcher personally" - actually has any merit at all. If the research meets the standards of good social science and its primary findings can be replicated, then it's good research. Your personal attacks on Koss are logically irrelevant. A lousy study isn't good if the researcher has what you'd consider "correct" views, and a well-conducted and designed study doesn't magically turn into a bad study  because you disagree with the researcher's views.

Second of all, there's nothing wrong with saying that rape is the extreme end of normal male behavior, any more than there's anything wrong with saying that infanticide is the extreme end of normal postpartum depression.  The point isn't "rape is what normal males do" or "infanticide is what normal mothers do"; the point is that rape is on the same continuum, not something completely alien and separate.

Strauss and Gelles have (iirc) argue that domestic violence is the extreme end of the continuum of ordinary human disagreements, yet they're cited all the time by MRAs. I think that most trained social scientists find the idea that "X is the extreme end of the spectrum of ordinary behavior" a lot less incendiary than most folks on the street do.

Mr. X

Quote
Second of all, there's nothing wrong with saying that rape is the extreme end of normal male behavior, any more than there's anything wrong with saying that infanticide is the extreme end of normal postpartum depression. The point isn't "rape is what normal males do" or "infanticide is what normal mothers do"; the point is that rape is on the same continuum, not something completely alien and separate.


You are begging the question here. Rape is the extreme of "normal" male behavior? Yes there certainly is something wrong with including normal in with rape. I would say rape is an extreme of ABNORMAL male behavior same as infanticide is an extreme abnormal behavior of postpartum depression. notice how you say rape is an extreme of NORMAL male behavior yet you DON'T say infanticide is an extreme of normal female behavior. Instead you say infanticide is an extreme of an ABNORMAL condition in females with postpartum depression. BTW it was postpartum psychosis that Andrea Yates supposedly suffered from, not postpartum depression.

To say that rape is in the set of "normal" male behavior and its just an extreme is just labelling men as rapists. There is nothing NORMAL about rape and I would LOVE to see you prove rape is NORMAL behavior.

According to your logic, there IS no such thing as abnormal behavior since any behavior (from eating fetuses to having sex with 3 year old dead cow carcasses) could be just "extremes" of normal behavior.

Can you name one behavior that is truly ABNORMAL according to your set of rules?
Feminists - "Verbally beating men like dumb animals or ignoring them is all we know and its not working."

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