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Response to Mr. Bad re: Farrell, Koss, and Archer

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Mr. Bad:

--- Quote from: "Dr Evil" ---Do you know of any studies that ask the exact same questions to men?  I would be curious to see the responses.
--- End quote ---


Sorry E., I don't know of any studies like that - sexual victimization is not really my thing, so I'm not current on the literature.  However, I do plan on conducting a citation search of the 1987 Koss et al. article to test the hypothesis that others have cited it in peer-reviewed literature, so I'll keep an eye peeled for what you're looking for.  That said, I don' t plan on wasting much more time addressing Amp's challenges, which IMO are fairly lame.

The Biscuit Queen:
Dr Reena Summers did a study on DV where both genders were asked gender nuetral, specific questions-have you ever slapped your partner, has your partner ever choked you?

The results were aproximately 50/50, with men doing more punching and choking and women doing more weapons and throwing things. Both genders experienced eqtable amounts of abuse.

Mr. Bad:

--- Quote from: "ampersand" ---I showed you two clear examples, neither of which you've rebutted in the slightest. I'll repeat what I wrote before:

In Myth of Male Power, Farrell wrote:


--- Quote from: "Warren Farrell" ---A Ms-sponsored study which the mass media widely quoted as saying that 25 percent of all women were raped by the time they were in college used this question to reach the 25 percent figure:


--- Quote ---"Have you given in to sexual intercourse when you didn't want to because you were overwhelmed by a man's continual arguments and pressure?"
--- End quote ---

--- End quote ---


Two problems with this passage. First of all, the study in question found that 25% of college women have experienced rape or attempted rape at some time in their life; the number for completed rape is closer to 12%. One could argue that Farrell was just repeating how the study was reported in the mass media, but it's irresponsible to do so without also reporting the correct figure. Besides, Farrell clearly attributes the 25 percent figure to the study itself - it is the study, not the media, which (according to Farrell) "used this question to reach the 25 percent figure." But the study never claimed that 25 percent of women have been raped.
--- End quote ---


Farrell made it abundantly clear that he was describing how the media reported the Koss study, as your quote above clearly shows and well as the fact that the statement in question appears in Chapter 14 "The Politics of Rape," p. 316, after stating:


--- Quote from: "Farrel in [i ---The Myth of Male Power[/i], p. 316"]A MS-sponsored study which the mass media widely quoted as saying 25% of women were raped by the time they were in college used this question to reach the 25 percent figure
--- End quote ---
(Verbatim quote from Koss, Table 3, p. 167 follows per your quote above).  

There's absolutely nothing misleading about what Farrell wrote.  In fact, it is your comment above
--- Quote from: "amp" ---One could argue that Farrell was just repeating how the study was reported in the mass media, but it's irresponsible to do so without also reporting the correct figure.
--- End quote ---
that is incorrect and misleading.  Farrell indeed cites the 25% number for the correct table and question, provides a clear reference to it in the endnotes of Chapter 14, and as the quote shows makes it clear that it was the media that made the equivalence of 25% to actual rapes.  


--- Quote from: "ampersand" ---Second, and more important, problem: The study never used that question for calculating rape prevalence. (The study did contain that question, but used it only to report instances of "pressuring" - not rape.) Anyone could verify this by reading the study itself (The Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology v 55 (2) p. 162-170).
--- End quote ---


You should be careful when you challenge people to look at the primary literature, because I have and it supports what Farrell et al. have claimed, i.e., that the Koss study was an ideologically biased advocacy piece, not legitimate, rigorous scientific examination.

Overall, in her discussion Koss fluidly moves between her expanded measures of "sexual victimization" (defined as rape, attempted rape, "attempted fondling," etc.) and true rape, which is misleading at best and deliberate fraud at worst.  On p. 168 she states that "the results indicate that, since the age of 14, 27.5% of college women reported experiencing and 7.7% of college men reported perpetrating and act that met the legal definition of rape, which includes attempts."  However, I don't believe that legal definitions of rape actuall do include attempted rape; I believe that attempted rape is a separate crime.

Next, the study did indeed use the question you cite above (question 6, Table 3) for calculating rape.  Koss states in her methods section, p. 165, Scoring procedure:
--- Quote ---The groups labeled 'rape' (yes responses to Items 8, 9, or 10 and any lower numbered items) and "attempted rape" (yes responses to Items 4 or 5 but not to any higher numbered items) included individuals whose experiences met legal definitions of these crimes.
--- End quote ---
(emphasis mine)

Therefore, question 6 asking about "pressuring" was most definitely included in her calculations for prevalence of "rape."  


--- Quote from: "ampersand" ---So Farrell, in "criticizing" the study, misrepresents both the study's results and its methodology. Although to be fair, this might be the result of extreme carelessness, rather than actual dishonesty.
--- End quote ---


No, actually, Farrell got it exactly correct (no surprises there) and the feminists who you rely on for your talking points fucked-up and got it wrong.  


--- Quote from: "ampersand" ---Now, you say that you're not interested in Koss because you find her unreliable. But you also said that you found Farrell reliable; therefore, the fact that he badly misrepresented Koss' study should be of interest to you, since it shows that Farrell actually misrepresents what he talks about quite badly.
--- End quote ---


Koss is unreliable.  As I clearly demonstrate in a previous post and here, she approached the study with bias, conducted the study in a biased manner, and reported her findings and made conclusions in a biased manner.  This paper doesn't pass the smell test on its face, and the closer one looks at it the worse it stinks.

As I said before, in her discussion she fluidly moves between her expanded definitions for "rape," attempted rape, sexual victimization, etc., and valid, legal definitions of rape used by legitimate law enforcement entities and state and federal government.  Thus, she gives the impression (either deliberately or not) that her definitions are in line with legitimate legal entities, which they are not.  Further, she shows her blatant bias and likely sexism by emphasizing potential male dishonesty and/or error re. their responses to the survey, e.g., p. 169 "The findings of the present study demonstrate that men do not admit enough sexual aggression to account for the number  of victimizations reported by women" even though she herself validated the responses for men.  Yet at the same time she trusts the women's responses, never once even addresses the possibility that women might also be making errors or being dishonest in their responses, and didn't even bothered to try to measure the validity of the women's responses, let alone subject them to the same review that she gave the men's responses.

Koss simply made the assumption that while men are untrustworthy, 'women never lie.'

Yeah, right.


--- Quote from: "ampersand" ---The main findings Dr. Koss made about rape (as opposed to about sexual coercion in general) are: One, that rape was much more common than the official data sources at the time indicated.
--- End quote ---


No.  Koss measured reporting, not actual rape.


--- Quote from: "ampersand" ---Two, that a very large proportion of rapes are never reported to police.
--- End quote ---


No.  Koss measured the difference between women's responses when they they were free to say whatever they wished vs. their responses when they had the added pressure of the legal system's checks and balances vis-a-vis verification of fact, etc.


--- Quote from: "ampersand" ---Third, that rape is usually committed by someone known to the victim, not by a stranger.
--- End quote ---


No.  Once again, Koss measured reporting, not actual rape.

The Koss article was feminist-driven and funded, biased advocacy, not rigorous science.  Koss failed to examine all the limitations of her work and failed to explore other explanations for her results because she went in to the research with her conclusions already in mind.  That's not legitimate scientific research.

Nothing in that study or your defense of it changes my impression that feminists are anything other than shameless propagandists and liars.  Feminists have been attacking Farrell ever since he broke ranks with them, but because Farrell is a rigorous academic his work withstands this sort of libel.  

Good luck trying to refute his assessment of the male/female earnings gap.

(edited a couple of times for formatting, etc.)

Mr. Bad:
(deleted duplicate)

The Biscuit Queen:
Mr Bad....

:daman:

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