Started by Rob Layton, Jan 18, 2006, 02:17 PM

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Quote from: "Lee R."
Quote from: "Dr Evil"
I agree Lee that it is likely a set-up.  That would make sense.  What doesn't make sense is why the organization would then disband.  That doesn't add up.

Quote from: "Lee R."
I think this is a setup.

Someone infiltrates F4J, has a few SMS/IM/Email exchanges in jest or speaking hyperbolically, and then go to SY and leak that there is a plot to kidnap the PM's son.  They then use their own exchanges as proof.  Considering Blair's tendency to bend the truth when it comes to Intelligence, I have profound doubts.

This is what happens when you begin to effect REAL CHANGE, and threaten, truly threaten, the status quo.  Smear campaigns, attempts to shut you down, or ally you with terrorists/nutbars/extremists.

F4j has become very effective and were changing things for the better for men in the UK.  Conveniently, the strongest voice for men in the UK is now temporarily suspended.

I gotta tell ya, I just don't trust the government at all anymore...

If the government has some info on F4J or threatened its leaders with harassment, missing children, arrest etc, then it makes sense.  This was done under duress, no doubt.

"Disband or we prosecute you under terrorist statutes as the leader of a terrorist cell."

That was my thought as well. A "Disband or we make your lives a living hell" as it were.


Well alrighty then......

I'm from the US of course, so I'm tempted to just tend to my own problems.
(Bwa  ha ha ha......good one!)

Might I suggest the following?


In January The Sun printed a sensationalistic story implicating F4J in a plot to
kidnap the children of the PM.

This story was based on non-existant information.
(insert revelations found here in this thread)
As a result, The Fathers 4 Justice campaign group said it had decided to disband due to the report, although it insisted none of its current members had been involved in any kidnap plot.

Fathers and Gentlemen everywhere,
Share your thoughts with and about this smear campaign by the Sun.
Beginning January 22 cease purchasing the Sun for a period of three weeks.
Consider any issue  in public to be  a white feather.
Promptly place any found abandond in the dust bin as an-anti  litter measure.

Please pass this on to at least three other men and  women who might be willing to support justice in the family courts of the United Kingdom.

If you are seeing this on the web, print three copies and distribute.

YOU can make a differance!


Correct,Copy, and Paste the above EVERYWHERE on the web where you can, starting NOW!

Just a thought. How fast IS the web?
Let's see!

Laboratory Mike

Quote from: "FloorPie"

That was my thought as well. A "Disband or we make your lives a living hell" as it were.

Indeed FloorPie. Not only that, the wording of the articles is also making F4J into an "example." Think about it, the implication is that "extremist elements" are somehow set to creep into any mens' or fathers' organization. But, then again, since Mr O'Connor played it well even in the end, he has, in my mind, generated the maximum good attention that he could generate throught his whole affair. Now, with any luck, these FRAs will become like the hydra and generate multiple new groups.

Kill one, and more appear!


This is very sad indeed for F4J-UK.  Somehow I have faith that there will still be groups advocating for fathers and equal parenting in the UK.  One question I had is what this means for F4J-Wales, F4J-US, F4J-Canada, and F4J-NL (as well as any other countries where people were organizing).

This seems not unlike what happened to US civil rights and anti-war organizations in the '60s and '70s,  where good groups were sabotaged and different factions were very split over tactics.

If anyone hears any good (or bad) radio or Tv soundbytes, hit one of the communication buttons below (PM) or post.

Men's Rights Activist

"This is very sad indeed for F4J-UK. Somehow I have faith that there will still be groups advocating for fathers and equal parenting in the UK."

Much ado, but F4J disbanding is hopefully just a step taken to avoid any further public vilification against Fathers.  Hopefully this move will give things a chance to settle down and help keep everyone safe.  In labor relations, such a maneuver is referred to as a cooling off period.  I would be very surprised not to see the F4J movement continue in some form  and even stronger than before.

I have always advocated that F4J should follow the letter of the law in all its ventures, and it appears in some of its most recent street protests it has done that.

As a member of the National Coalition of Free Men - Los Angeles, and a strong supporter of equal rights for Dads and men, I send my sincerest regards to all the disenfranchised Dads and men in the UK, and encourage all to endeavor to persevere.

I enclose this photo of a veteran protest sign as a token of our solidarity across the miles that separate us.  http://tinyurl.com/ansug
In our hearts we are a band of brothers, and sisters, united by a common decency that elevates us above lower life forms and gender feminists.
Life, Liberty, & Pursuit of Happiness are fundamental rights for all (including males), & not contingent on gender feminist approval or denial. Consider my "Independence" from all tyrannical gender feminist ideology "Declared" - Here & Now!


These guys showed an incredible amount of intelligence and courage. They did what no others have done.  I refuse to believe based on what has been revealed so far that these guys would seriously plan to do something so stupid and hurtful to their cause.

If they want me to believe that, I need to ear specifics. I have heard just generalities and vague empty allegations so far

There is more to this story than what has come out. I saw an article that was a precurser to this a month or more ago. I think they were posturing to this end for some time. Who is the "they." Well, "them."

This was either loose bantor blown way out of proportion or outright setup and coercion as far as I am concerned right now. I know I have many times said things like "How would Judge _____ feel if he (or his son or whatever) were treated this way?" I am sure I have gone as far as "I wish Judge ____ would get a taste of his own medicine."

Now, these are just variations of the golden rule. Essentially, these people whether Blair or whoever should "do to others as they would have others do to themselves." Obviously, these people would not want done to them what they do to others. This is a completely natural thought process. It is natural to wish that these people suffer in the same way they cause others to suffer. This would help them learn a valuable lesson.

By the way, the government accusing these people of threatening to take a child away from a man is like the "pot calling the kettle black." The government threatens this day in and day out every day of ever year in any number of ways. It actually does this many times also.

Sir Percy

Often it is just not possible to see where an enemy is about to strike. The powerfulness of F4Js message and presentation has singled them out as a very dangerous force as far as the Femonazi political/bureaucratic state is concerned and it was ineveitable that some sort of action would be taken to counter them. But the response to the Femo attack is very disappointing.

First things first. Should Matt have chucked in the towel?. Well it was up to him and he has been at it for a number of years originating in individual action. The organisation grew around him, not to his particular delight. He is a loner who does well by himself. He has done a magnificent job and all praise to him. It will be up to the individual chapters in different countries to take up the reins for themselves. It is a disaster only if we let it be. Rally the troops.  Lets see what the public reaction is. There may be a few surprises.

Second. The attack. It has all the hallmarks of an organised smear and the involvement of Scotland Yard adds a very sinister aspect. That F4J should even be considered a civil threat of the likes of animal rights activists, PETA, radical muslim groups - as I have seen suggested - is laughable. That the Police should have been directed to investigate them is old Eastern European Police State stuff. It's a f*cking disgrace and a sorry reflection on the Police for not resisting, upon the hysterical nature of Blair's Britain and on misandric gleefulness of the British Fourth Estate. Oh Woe is my old homeland. What have you become.

The actual information released is so indistinct and questionable that no prosecution could possibly be made from it. Indeed, none has. There is serious doubt in my mind that any real conspiracy took place. Where is the evidence? Who were the alleged conspirators? Was this nothing more than a bunch of guys sounding off over a few beers that has been blown out of any proportion? Were there any guys at all, beer or no beer or is this wholly fictitious?

That the Sun newspaper with its rabid, misandric, violent Editor, who is no better than a hack in the manner of the 30s newspaper hacks supporting the prime Nazi, was leading the pack of dogs baying for F4J blood is no surprise. They will invent anything to sell that dirt-rag. I agree with the Capt. Boycott the nasty rag.

As for the notion that the Prime Minister of Little Britain's child could be kidnapped at all, by a bunch of dismayed Dads, it is sheer hollywood or TV Lala land fantasy.
vil, like misery, is Protean, and never greater than when committed in the name of 'right'. To commit evil when they are convinced they are doing 'good', is one of the greatest of pleasures known to a feminist.


OK, assuming for a moment - just for arguments' sake - that indeed there was such a hare-brained plot: so what? Early feminists committed criminal acts; it took them two generations to get into the mainstream. Maybe 50 years from now Fathers' Rights (and Mens' Rights) will have the same status as Feminism has now...
The spreading of information about the [quantum] system through the [classical] environment is ultimately responsible for the emergence of "objective reality." 

Wojciech Hubert Zurek: Decoherence, einselection, and the quantum origins of the classical


No, men cannot act as women have acted. The criminal law has never really applied to women the same way it has always applied to men.

The way to win this is not to engage in criminal behavior no matter what the feminists did in their early days. It is an extremely bad idea.

Yes, minor crimes like obstructing streets and protesting in places where it is not allowed -- those things are acceptable. Not major crimes.

Major crimes is an extremely bad idea. In any group of a large number of people, some will cross the line, but it should not be viewed as an acceptable tactic by the group as a whole. Period.

I just have seen nothing to support that there really was a real conspiracy to do anything. This reminds me of what happens to men all the time in family court. The woman makes some vague accusation. It never goes anywhere officially. Yet, it disrupts his fatherhood immensely. As a crime, it goes nowhere. In family court, it goes everwhere. No real evidence is necessary in family court. I have even heard a judge acknowledge this. He said there would be no visitation until the man was "cleared." In other words, he had to prove his innocence. Absolutely bad judicial behavior. It is very hard to prove your innocense. These guys are under the cloud of a vague accusation. They will never be definitely cleared. We don't know their names. We don't know what they supposedly did. Empty but effective. Family law tactics working in the bigger world of public opinion.

Rob Layton

Any body wanting to see the Matt O'connor Interview can find it here ...
dont know how long link will last..


The Biscuit Queen

F4J was planning on only being active for 3 years anyways, they wanted to get on ewith their lives after having made some public attention for the cause. I personally think they did the right thing in disbanding publicly with such emphasis on refusing to allow their movement to be hijacked by terrorists.

The terrorists are not the rogue MRAs. They are the psuedo journalists.

I think that taking the high road is exactly the right thing to do here. People see what happened. I do not think they are gone forever. There are F4J groups all over the world now, they have started what no one group has.

I am very sad to see them go, but I understand why. The cause is more important than the maintaining of the group. Allowing the group to be dragged in the mud would hurt the kids in the long run.

The Sun are scumbag.
he Biscuit Queen

There are always two extremes....the truth lies in the middle.


I thought Matt let himself be goaded into saying the movement had been a failure in the Channel 4 Interview.  Phrasing can be a lot.  Couldn't he have pulled some degree of limited success out of it?  At least for the larger public.  What the core men in the movement discuss and take away from this is separate and a different issue than declaring the entire past several years a failure.

The splinter group held their own, I thought - but even they could have avoided being goaded to call the "other side" a failure.  Each group contributed to increasing the public awareness.  Each group can see much work ahead, but are re-evaluating tactics - especially in light of increasing security concerns on the part of government.

dr e

I thought it was brilliant to say that they had failed.  He was bringing awareness to the fact that nothing has changed.  People are still sitting on their asses and not moving to bring some fairness to the table.  He basically called people out and said we have put the call out there and too few have answered.  Hey, Mr "Sitting on Your Ass and Watching This" you are partly to blame.  Yeah, you!

My problem is that they disbanded as a result of something that is likely not related to their membership/goals or purpose.  It makes them look guilty when that is far from the truth.  I think it would have been much more effective to simply deny the charges and help focus on the issues and the goals of F4J and then in a week or two make more news by saying that it is time to disband.

He reminded me of a battered man.  They have really put him through the wringer.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.


Quote from: "Lee R."
I think this is a setup.

Someone infiltrates F4J, has a few SMS/IM/Email exchanges in jest or speaking hyperbolically, and then go to SY and leak that there is a plot to kidnap the PM's son.  They then use their own exchanges as proof.  Considering Blair's tendency to bend the truth when it comes to Intelligence, I have profound doubts.


I gotta tell ya, I just don't trust the government at all anymore...

No surprise. Let's see, the US government used that same tactic on the American Indian Movement, the Black Panthers, SDS, and every other movement that came out of the 60s/70s. Infiltrate, set up, then arrest.

It's been done before and it will be done again. I sure wish our governments were honest, and interested in the welfare of people instead of just themselves.
: How many feminists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?


Rob Layton

Just to let you know we have some very interesting comments on the chanel four forum.

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