Inability of Men to Counter With Women Feminist Ideas

[zarby]

I am sitting out in hall of a public place. There is a gathering of people who belong to a group. I am friends with one of them.

My friend and her friend got to talking about animal rights. This conversation switched over into the rights of women and children.

These two women got to talking about how men used to be able
to beat animals, women, and children with impunity, etc. They
were talking like men used to beat their animals, women, children,
etc. regularly but certain heroic figures they named initiated change.

I sat there and on an intellectual level started thinking as I would
express myself here. I kept quiet and didn't say a word out loud.

I thought it was not an appropriate time or place to engage these
women in debate. Yes, now, women are allowed to abuse men
virtually with impunity and in ways arguably far worse than mere
physical beatings. No, men were never truely free to act that
way. At least as long as he was part of a community (not isolated
on a desert island or whatever) and he wanted to be more than
scum in the community, he could not freely act that way. Yes,
he could engage in some conduct now called domestic violence
(e.g. a minor push or a raised voice or a beer at the tavern), but
he could not engage in true violence or he would be sanctioned
by the community. I had these types of thoughts.

What scared me though was that I started feeling really attracted
to my friend's friend despite my disagreement with what she was saying.
I think this illustrates the problem. It is very hard to hold women
to anything because other factors come into play. I don't even
know this woman but translate these feelings into a typical marriage.
The wife starts spewing venemous anti-man venom. The husband
who is attracted to her is not going to dispute what she says.
The attraction force supercedes the logic force. He sits there
and listens to her and ten they go out to dinner and then make love.
There is never any correction or even rebuttal by the man.

The woman then meets with her women friends and they reenforce
each other to no end. My point is that men are not acting and
possibly cannot act as a corrective force. This is why things
are as they are and this is why there may never be a correction.

[Mr Benn]

The problem is mainly that men are - in general - not as verbally nimble as women. And they can't spout things out so quickly and effectively on the spur of the moment as women can. In addition, most men know that if they try to counter a feminist argument in public, the feminist-minded woman could very likely become hysterical, twist the man's words, make an emotional scene, imply that he is a woman-hating wife-beating rape appologist etc.

However, online things shift in the anti-feminist's favor. This is because one can compose an argument or rebuttal in writing at ones own speed. Thinking carefully, looking up facts, and formulating arguments. Also its harder for a woman to emotionally manipulate a man online, and when writing something online a man feels emboldened not to have to toe the PC/feminist line or risk being attacked in public.

Also, if you argue with a woman in real life, you may change her mind, or you may not. Either way you have argued with one person, and unless you had an audience of hundreds of people listening in to you, thats more or less as far as it will go. However, if you put the same amount of effort into making an anti-feminist post online, then your logic and argument is there for all to see, and may influence and empower many hundreds or thousands of men.

So, all in all I think that its far better for men to argue their points online.

Nevertheless, I'm not saying one should just give in to women spouting man-hating crap in real life; just that it takes more effort and usually for less reward.

But if you want to fight back against them verbally, I would give the following advice:

1. Remain calm. Speak and breathe slowly. Try and stay totally devoid of emotion. Once they have you in the 'emotional zone' they will find it easier to manipulate you or make you look unreasonable.

2. Sometime, when you have a spare moment, write out a top 10 list of men's rights facts. Then get a book on memory techniques and commit these facts to memory. You will then have a mental fact-file on hand whenever you need it to defend yourself.

3. Ask them to confirm their position on men. For example: "Are you saying that fathers shouldnt have legal rights?" or "Are you saying that the only people who are evil in the world are straight white men?" If they are unable to answer this kind of straight question clearly or if they give an answer which displeases you then get up and leave their company immediately. If you need to say anything, simply tell them that you don't wish to spend time in a man-hater's company, any more than a black person would want to spend time at a KKK meeting.

[johnnyp]

zarby - you should have spoke up!

[The Biscuit Queen]

zarby, it had been illegal in the US for over 150 years to beat your wife.

Women could also beat their animals and children with impunity. It was called corperal punishment.

White women could have slaves beaten or do it themselves with impunity.

Are women evil because a one time they had the legal ability to do something that most  women likely never did?

If they are not, why are men?


I agree, real life situations are very difficult. I too have not said anything in order to avoid a scene. Someplaces a scene is just what you want, but sometimes it will only be counter productive.

My suggestion, is for each of these you hear, spend a few minutes boning up on the facts, such as the anti-violence laws on the books in the US. Prepare what arguements you would like to have done.

trust me, it will eventually come up again.

When you are attracted to the one spewing venom, remember your kids. Would she be so attractive denying you 'visitation'?

[Sir Percy]

Zarby has a point about being tongue-tied when in the company of a woman one finds attractive. Its a problem. So close your eyes to that attraction and envision a plain woman or another man. Mental techniques work. Imagine her mother!

Mr Benn  

The problem is mainly that men are - in general - not as verbally nimble as women. And they can't spout things out so quickly and effectively on the spur of the moment as women can.

Whilst many men are, as you say, many others are not as limited, and training in marshalling your arguements dispassionately helps.  Many women are as thick as two short planks too, just as many men are. And inarticulate. Every other one in fact. To use feminist myths about male inabilities is to further accept them. For millenia men have been the philosophers and professors, the orators and writers. Don't fall for feminist downgrading tactics. Let those that wish to make an hysterical scene do so. They make fools of themselves in the eyes of sensible women who know exactly what game they are playing. That's when you walk away. Your three points are quite sensible, nonetheless.

The value of a board like this and other sources on the web are that the arguements can be discussed. Don't just read and ripost. Learn and calculate. The rewards can be daily victories. One day soon, someone here will break a few bones (shades of Zarby again ) and be laid up in bed for a couple of months. They will sit with their lap-top and go through everything on this an other sites and write a book refuting all the standard femonazi nonesense to help the rest of us poor information organisers and inarticlulate bumblers. They will make verbal swords that even farm boys can take confidently into battle.

[ggreen67]

Think of the experience as a deficiency that you need to improve upon; public speaking / debating.

You also cannot be expected to be a human fact machine. There is nothing to be gained there.

Learn to express yourself, in your own words, not just spewing what you have read. This is not an easy thing as I am guilty of it as well on many occasions. If you can master this however, you become a much more formidable debating opponent.

[NobleTry]

The problem is mainly that men are - in general - not as verbally nimble as women. And they can't spout things out so quickly and effectively on the spur of the moment as women can. In addition, most men know that if they try to counter a feminist argument in public, the feminist-minded woman could very likely become hysterical, twist the man's words, make an emotional scene, imply that he is a woman-hating wife-beating rape appologist etc.

he he he.

Yesterday, my son and I were on a tour of a college campus, scouting where he might attend in the fall. It was just the two of us on the tour, with a junior coed, double majoring in political science or philosophy and sociology or some such stuff. Bright, articulate young woman. She'd be considered attractive by most people. It was a small, private college on the east coast. As she's giving us the tour she leads us into the hall where student productions are done. A nice auditorium, nothing fancy. She explains that the student productions are held four times per year, and they also do other events, and she rattles off a few names and very brightly and smoothly includes "The Vagina Monologues" without skipping a beat but done very much on purpose, I suspect, for the "enlightenment" of her captive male audience. My son catches the phrase, of course, and looks at me without saying anything but his countenance completely says "Did I just hear what I thought I heard, and, if I did, what the f*** does it mean?" These are the public educational moments I relish. I glanced at the young woman and looked my son full in the eyes and, with the slightest grin, explained it in two decisive words: "Feminist propoganda."

The young woman flashed a look as if to say: "Did I just hear what I thought I heard, and, if I did, what the f*** does it mean?" Our tour continued without further ado and no more politicizing.

Only later did I feel not so pissed at her bringing up the Monologues at all but that that was the production that was uppermost in her mind, that she felt compelled to share with us, not something by the Greeks, or Shakespeare, or, hell, even Wilde or something as silly as "Our Town". No. Throw the canon of western civilization out and let's all gather 'round the maypole and chant "cunt, cunt, cunt" over and over. Very liberating.

That was what was so discouraging to me.

And feminists wonder why men don't take them seriously.  :roll:

[hurkle]

Last weekend my daughter's girl scout troop had a special Cookie Kickoff Event at the local Science Center.

Yes, yes, I'm well aware of the contempt that most MRAs hold for Girl Scouts, but I am on good terms with the leader, and I fully support scouting as an ex-scout myself.

In any case, during the planetarium portion, the guy giving the speech was talking about the first men on the moon. "And one of you girls," he added, "may be the first woman to walk on the moon."

Okay. No problem.

Then, he continued, "And speaking of college, you have to go. You have to do the best you can. Don't let any boys stand in your way."

Why boys? Why not "anyone" or "anything"?

At this many of the girls started cheering. Then obnoxious young teen girls who were sitting behind me and had talked loudly through the whole show started making comments like, "Boys stink" and "Girls rule".

I wanted to say something, but by the time I thought of something that was calm, collected, and understandable, the moment had passed.

I want to be quicker on the draw.

[Assault]

Sounds to me like you found this woman attractive, and were willing to give her a pass based on her looks.

Realize there are millions of beautiful women in the world, and thier power suddenly diminishes. I can appreciate a beautiful woman, but the minute she starts acting like a jackass, I find her disgusting.

I broke up with my girlfriend on the weekend because she laughed at a news story about a woman locking her alcoholic husband in a closet for 3 weeks and forcing him to eat dog food.  I was disgusted that she would find that funny.

Women are everywhere. You're dignity and self respect are valuable.

[zarby]

That's interesting. The vagina monologues came up in this
discussion because those two women mentioned that two.

 I said something like "I have no desire to see that." I was told
"it is a normal part of sexuality." I responded "Not my sexuality."
They looked at me kind of funny. I said "I have yet to encounter
a talking vagina." That was the last of the discussion on that topic.

[johnnyp]

Many times it is difficult to come up with an articulate response to man-bashing feminist propaganda unless one is in the right frame of mine.  Sometimes I am nearly mute, other times I think I could be a professional commentator.  The problem is that I usually have little control over my mental/oral nimbleness, and even less control over when a situation will arise.

The solution may be to have a standard response for when you are not mentally/orally alert.

"I really do not care to hear about XX topic.  I think it is sexist and hostile.  I have a feeling XX is based on myths and distortions.  Do you have any concrete facts, sources, or references?  If you don't, please refrain from that kind of talk in my presence."

If the person persists - get up and walk away while saying "I have heard enough of this bigoted talk".

This might make the offender think - it might not.  But at least you did not sit there and take it like an Uncle Tom.

[NobleTry]

It might go without saying...but I'll say it anyway: There are some times when it is better to remain silent in the face of foolishness or ignorance. The Bible says (something to the effect): "A wise man cannot teach a fool", or "A fool cannot hear instruction". Here's an example, and I know it's not the best one:

I was picking up one of my daughters from her weekly Girl Scout meeting, and I was the only male present. One of the girls made a comment about Halo (the game for XBox, I'm a big fan), another girl asked "What's Halo?", and then one of the mothers who was there lazily paging through one of those clothing/knick knack catalogs commented, dripping contempt and superiority, "Halo's that stupid game all the boys play," and she continued leafing through her catalog while several of the girls around her laughed. Instantly it came to mind to speak something to her, but it would have been cutting and sarcastic and would have been perceived as mean-spirited, so I simply chose the higher road and kept silent. I thought to myself: You poor, bitter, ignorant, slothful American woman, you are so totally ignorant about what you disdain, you are so totally ignorant about the genius and creativity and power and organizational skills and sweat that it took to make such a game and a world-wide environment to keep it running. I realized, in that instant, any defense or explanation I gave would have fallen on deaf ears. Even worse, it would have caused her to become defensive and hostile. It would have been throwing pearls before swine.

So, gentlemen, don't throw your pearls before swine. The swine may stomp on your pearls and turn around and trample you.

Words of wisdom from the man Himself.

[dr e]

I don't know Noble Try, it might have been very effective to tell the simple truth and just say in a gentle voice.  "You know, I really like that game and have been playing it for over a year." "It's fun."  

You might even add that it is a great way to spend time with your sons.   :wink:   if you have sons.

[Peter]

It is quite hard to dicuss with persons producing statement after statement without much self critism (hoping that some argument will stick) or picking standard arguments off the shelf.

After all you may need 5 minutes to refute with logic and knowledge a silly statement that somone puts together in 20 seconds.

Using facts and logic takes effort.

[CaptDMO]

I often find current smoking ettiquite convenient for situations like this.

"Excuse me, Im going to go outside (or elsewhere) for a smoke, I'll be back soon"  Strangely, Ive had others say "I'll join you". If  I say I didn't think you were a smoker some have said "I'm not, I just couldn't stand the nattering"

Another ploy I've used with eventual success is "Mmm...NO"!
Of course it can be awkward, but ultimately the target of the rebuke will go out of their way to avoid me-problem solved!