Anyone read "Self-made Man"

brian44 · Feb 02, 2006, 07:28 AM

It looks interesting:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0670034665/sr=1-1/qid=1138890279/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2612048-8339033?%5Fencoding=UTF8

ggreen67 · Feb 02, 2006, 11:10 AM

If it were written by a "self-made man" it may be interesting. But being its written by a woman.

I think I'll pass. My guess, its PC propaganda.

Somebody else · Feb 02, 2006, 11:48 AM

She's getting a lot of press for the book. Some of her discoveries were very pro-male (sympathetic towards our difficulties). I saw photos of her as "Ned" and she really looked like a guy - no "almost" about it. I'm going to give it a read.

brian44 · Feb 03, 2006, 01:26 AM

Quote from: "ggreen67"

If it were written by a "self-made man" it may be interesting. But being its written by a woman.

I think I'll pass. My guess, its PC propaganda.

Surely the interesting thing about this is how a woman's preconceptions of what it is like to be man are challenged. Also, only a woman knows what it is like to be a woman, so has something to compare it to.

brian44 · Feb 03, 2006, 01:31 AM

Quote from: "Somebody else"

She's getting a lot of press for the book. Some of her discoveries were very pro-male (sympathetic towards our difficulties). I saw photos of her as "Ned" and she really looked like a guy - no "almost" about it. I'm going to give it a read.

I think it looks interesting. She will never really know what it's like to be a man (for instance, she didn't spend over two decades growing up swamped by negative images of her gender), but she's had a glimpse. She seems to have surprised a lot of feminists with her conclusions, which has to be a very good thing.

angryharry · Feb 03, 2006, 06:04 AM

"She was also shocked by the women she dated. 'I listened to them talk literally for hours about the most minute, mind-numbing details of their personal lives. Listening to them was like undergoing a slow frontal lobotomy.'"

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1692142,00.html

woof · Feb 03, 2006, 06:13 AM

Quote from: "angryharry"

"She was also shocked by the women she dated. 'I listened to them talk literally for hours about the most minute, mind-numbing details of their personal lives. Listening to them was like undergoing a slow frontal lobotomy.'"

LOL......too f**king funny...... :laugh2:.... so true.... :yes:

dr e · Feb 03, 2006, 06:13 AM

I think it's worth noting that no one questions her conclusions, they just "oh and ah" about how interesting it is. Yes it is interesting but think about this, how many people would "oh and ah" if it was a man fooling women in the same ruse? I don't think so. Criticisims would be flying about how he was unscrupulous and a liar in order to gain the trust of women and enter their personal space. People would be saying how he was still a man and unable to TRULY experience what it is like to be a woman and would likely void his observations as a result. He might even be accused of being a quasi-rapist since he penetrated their trust and personal space without their consent. "What kind of man would do something like that" would be a question that would be heard across the land and on amazon reviews. Contrast that with the reception she is getting.

brian44 · Feb 03, 2006, 09:36 AM

Quote from: "Dr Evil"

I think it's worth noting that no one questions her conclusions, they just "oh and ah" about how interesting it is. Yes it is interesting but think about this, how many people would "oh and ah" if it was a man fooling women in the same ruse?

It's true, men find themselves navigating far more culpability minefields than women. I sometimes wonder if deep down in both gender's brains there are hardwired neural circuits that assume a man's guilt and a woman's innocence.

Mr Benn · Feb 03, 2006, 10:47 AM

Quote from: "Dr Evil"

I think it's worth noting that no one questions her conclusions, they just "oh and ah" about how interesting it is. Yes it is interesting but think about this, how many people would "oh and ah" if it was a man fooling women in the same ruse? I don't think so. Criticisims would be flying about how he was unscrupulous and a liar in order to gain the trust of women and enter their personal space. People would be saying how he was still a man and unable to TRULY experience what it is like to be a woman and would likely void his observations as a result. He might even be accused of being a quasi-rapist since he penetrated their trust and personal space without their consent. "What kind of man would do something like that" would be a question that would be heard across the land and on amazon reviews. Contrast that with the reception she is getting.

Agreed.

But its actually even worse than that. In the course of her 'experiment' she dated a number of women while she was disguised as a man. But she later revealed to some of these women that she was a woman, and she ended up sleeping with them ** DESPITE ** the fact that she already has a serious, long term partner. If a straight man did that the press would not be giving him such applause.

brian44 · Feb 03, 2006, 12:37 PM

Quote from: "Mr Benn"

Agreed.

But its actually even worse than that. In the course of her 'experiment' she dated a number of women while she was disguised as a man. But she later revealed to some of these women that she was a woman, and she ended up sleeping with them ** DESPITE ** the fact that she already has a serious, long term partner. If a straight man did that the press would not be giving him such applause.

I'd love to know how it feels to be a woman. To take off the millstone of blame and responsibility round my neck and feel the freedom.

Mr Benn · Feb 03, 2006, 01:06 PM

Another thing... if she wanted the experiment to be more genuine then she should have taken some big injections of testosterone.

typhonblue · Feb 03, 2006, 06:32 PM

I just finished reading the book.

I disagreed with the author in some places... she didn't take her conclusions far enough. She almost seemed to grok the fact that women are subject to limitations, yes, but they are limitations decided upon and enforced by *women*. Men are subject to limitations *women* have created. Big difference.

The other thing I didn't like was her belief that homemakers contribute as much to the household as wage-slaves. If she thinks part-time, untaxing work, flexible hours and an absolutely self-controlled/moderated enviroment compare to the painful indignities of a work place... then she's missed some of the point.

Other then that I thought it was incredibly insightful. I'd recommend it to everyone here. (As for the woman == innocent/man == guilty dichotomy... she addresses it in her book over and over again with a sympathetic look at how it hurts men.)

As for men being lambasted for taking the same role... I've heard male-to-female transexuals explain the difference in social status between men and women as women being "incredibly powerful and privilaged."

Also, I have a sinking feeling that if any man ever did try out being a woman... it would be a man like Amp and Hugo who would be so wrapped around woman-as-victim that it would just become a propoganda peice for feminism.

typhonblue · Feb 03, 2006, 09:29 PM

Quote

Vincent says she's healed now and glad to be rid of Ned. But her views about men have changed forever.

"Men are suffering. They have different problems than women have, but they don't have it better," she said. "They need our sympathy. They need our love, and maybe they need each other more than anything else. They need to be together."

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Entertainment/story?id=1526982

I think this message is the hardest one for women to hear.

Ultimately men don't need more of WOMAN, they need eachother. Even pro-MRA women get stuck on that one.

brian44 · Feb 04, 2006, 01:37 AM

Typhonblue, you restore my faith in womanhood. Can't believe there's a woman out there that cares that much about our situation.