Yahoo News: Bloody attack on Mass. gay bar stuns region

[Laboratory Mike]

Found this a few minutes ago...

Link to article

"It's crazy that it happened in this day and age," said Craig Paiva, a 29-year-old New Bedford resident who lives two blocks from Robida's home. "You wonder how someone could hate a group of people so badly at the age of 18."

Sometimes I wonder why people think that they've won victories over "hate," when "reverse hate" such as hatred against heterosexual men has been promoted for so long?

On the article itself, I can understand why Robida did it, but I condemn the actions. Even in a world that hates you, or that you perceive as hating you, killing sprees are not the answer. That's why we have an MRM: we fight with ideas, not hatchets.

[typhonblue]

Are the gay men who were killed not men?

Violence against homosexuals disproportionately affects men, just like suicide, work place fatalities, premature death and a host of other ills perpetrated by our anti-male society.

These gay men were killed *because* they were men. If they were women they might be subject to some catt-calls and odd glances but very, very little more.

As for the hatred between homosexual men and heterosexual men... it reminds me strongly of the hatred between the Rwandan Tutsis by the Hutu. It's an artifical schism and hatred generated by a third force which, cooincidentally, is the one that benefits from it.

[Bilbo]

On the article itself, I can understand why Robida did it, but I condemn the actions. Even in a world that hates you, or that you perceive as hating you, killing sprees are not the answer. That's why we have an MRM: we fight with ideas, not hatchets.

Well, apparently, the neo-nazis fight with hatchets.  And guns as well.
And I should think that the MRM community would benefit greatly by drawing a greater distinction between the 2 groups than their choice of weapons.  This guy is one sick fuck- as are all neo-nazis.  There's nothing in the article to suggest that he was retaliating for an injustice visited upon him from the gay community, much less the people he attacked.
This guy's behavior more closely resembles feminists' hate movement of attacking all men for simply being men, than it does a principled defense of heterosexual men.  And it's rather repugnant to suggest otherwise.  The guy's a sociopath.

[Laboratory Mike]

You're right on drawing lines in terms of ideologies, since we obviously aren't Neo-Nazis.

Still, I do wonder what caused this particular guy to do what he did. Even though he was not justified in killing those men, I still think that he was lashing back at an "organism" of some sort, perhaps political correctness, perhaps the gay lobby. Who knows what got him started, but I would guess that he was in some way afflicted by one of these organisms, learned to cope via absorbing extremeist ideologies, and thereby ultimately becoming the very killer we are debating about!

Also, please keep in mind that while it may be true that gay men suffer anti-gay violence more than lesbians do, I am trying to analyze the killer's motives more than how unfortunate it was for the victims. While you can try putting out more police to help victims, understanding the core effects that create violent people will go much farther in solving problems like these killing sprees.

hopefully I made better sense in this post.

[Bilbo]

Point taken.

[slayton]

These gay men were killed *because* they were men. If they were women they might be subject to some catt-calls and odd glances but very, very little more.

I have an interesting reference from historical perspective to support that claim (at least to a certain extent); when I was studying concentration camps system (mostly of Nazi Germany), I noticed something interesting in the process & remembered it. I managed to find it on-line;

PERSECUTION OF HOMOSEXUALS IN THE THIRD REICH     

While male homosexuality remained illegal in Weimar Germany under Paragraph 175 of the criminal code, German homosexual-rights activists became worldwide leaders in efforts to reform societal attitudes that condemned homosexuality. Many in Germany regarded the Weimar Republic's toleration of homosexuals as a sign of Germany's decadence.

Remember, this was still Weimar republic, not Nazi rule! Anyway, let's move on;

Once they took power in 1933, the Nazis intensified persecution of German male homosexuals. Persecution ranged from the dissolution of homosexual organizations to internment in concentration camps.

SS chief Heinrich Himmler directed the increasing persecution of homosexuals in the Third Reich. Lesbians were not regarded as a threat to Nazi racial policies and were generally not targeted for persecution.

Between 1933 and 1945 the police arrested an estimated 100,000 men as homosexuals. Most of the 50,000 men sentenced by the courts spent time in regular prisons, and between 5,000 and 15,000 were interned in concentration camps.

Some homosexuals were interned under other categories by mistake, and the Nazis purposefully miscategorized some political prisoners as homosexuals. Prisoners marked by pink triangles to signify homosexuality were treated harshly in the camps. According to many survivor accounts, homosexuals were among the most abused groups in the camps.

These are just highlights. The complete article can be found here.


Anyway, but now we get to the really interesting part;

LESBIANS AND THE THIRD REICH     

Although homosexual acts among men had traditionally been a criminal offense throughout much of Germany, lesbianism (homosexual acts among women) was not criminalized. Unlike male homosexuals, lesbians were not generally regarded as a social or political threat. Even after the Nazi rise to power in 1933, most lesbians in Germany were able to live relatively quiet lives, generally undisturbed by the police.

Finally, the Nazis dismissed lesbianism as a state and social problem because they believed lesbians could still carry out a German woman's primary role: to be a mother of as many "Aryan" babies as possible.

The Nazis nonetheless persecuted lesbians, albeit less severely than they persecuted male homosexuals.

While the police regarded lesbians as "asocials"--people who did not conform to Nazi norms and therefore could be arrested or sent to concentration camps--few were imprisoned because of their sexuality alone. The Nazis did not classify lesbians as homosexual prisoners, and only male homosexual prisoners had to wear the pink riangle.

If you'll go and check classification sytem in nazi concentration camps from a different source, you'll notice, that lesbians indeed didn't wear the pink triangle (they weren't imprisoned often anyway, as already told); they got the black triangle instead, which included the "Asocial"; prostitutes, murderers, thieves, lesbians, etc. Male homosexuals on the other hand got the pink triangle, which meant especially harsh treatment.

Though many lesbians experienced hardships during the Third Reich, the Nazis did not systematically persecute them.

Again, these are the highlights. Whole article here.


This was all based on the infamous Paragraph 175 (harsh, revised by Nazis version) of the Criminal Code, which explicitly targets only males.


Sidenote: In the articles above, notice how it's often mentioned that women/lesbians were "discriminated against" (this exact phrase) in Nazi Germany, because they were seen primarly as mothers, etc.
But it's interesting that "discriminated against" phrase wasn't used not even once in the case of men, even though there was complete paragraph of criminal code dedicated only to male citizens and the source itself mentions more than once, that male homosexuals were treated much more harshly. There really must be some kind of unwritten rule in the western society: Do not use words men/male and "discriminated against" in the same sentece, no matter what. You just don't do that.

[Laboratory Mike]

Never heard of that Slaytan. Though, it does make a bit of sense. While homosexual men have been getting more positive press recently, I've noticed that the lesbian/bi women have been seen as "hot" for quite some time. Perhaps there is a connection there? Or do think think it's simply because women are meant to be protected, and their actions overlooked?

[Laboratory Mike]

Hey look, the man in question got caught... by two bullets in the head.

link to article

The teen shot the woman in the car with him before he was wounded in the shootout with police, Walsh said. State police wouldn't confirm Walsh's account and said ballistics tests would determine how the woman died.

His passenger was Jennifer Rena Bailey, 33, of Charleston, W.Va., the West Virginia State Police said.

"Apparently she's had a prior relationship with this guy and had been corresponding with him," said state police Sgt. C.J. Ellyson.

Connection?

Based on testimonies given at the end of the article, the guy was apparently not too bad of a guy untilt his happened. Perhaps we have another teenaged nice-guy-turned-killer because of something happening with this 33 year old woman. If not, well, we still have one messed-up kid who killed his too-old lover and has seriously hurt a number of innocents in the process, and a lot of questions.

[KellyMB]

"I can understand why Robida did it"
I think you have done quite a dance around, "justifying" and "clarifying" your statements. If the above quote is true, than you need to have a long heart to heart talk with God. You are way off base, carrying that kind of bigotry and hatred in your heart. He is a mass murderer, and a cop killer, not an example for any of us. I hope you find your way.

[Buddy-Rey]

Somebody is going to have to brief me on exactly how this article shows "hatred against heterosexual men."  Sounds to me like an unbalanced, psychotic bigot killed some perfectly innocent people.  Why are MRA's supposed to be standing up for him?  He killed because certain men refused to live up to male gender roles.  If anything, MRA's should shun these actions.

[typhonblue]

I doubt the motivation for his actions had anything to do with feminism, PC or the gay lobby. Or at least they did only obliquely.

This kind of virulent homophobia in men... it can only come out of a deep psychological conflict between what the man in question needs and his perception of masculinity.

He was an 18 year old boy dating a 33 year old woman. From that alone you know he has mom issues. Most likely his mother is a controlling, confining... claustrophobic power in his life. So powerful in shaping his identity that he seeks her out again and again in his relationships.

However in conflict with this all-consuming mother figure is a nascent masculinity that's trying to errupt and take form. He most likely senses that he needs intimate contact with other men in order to bring his masculine self into the light. But again he is thwarted by mom, who has, in all sorts of ways, told him that other men are bad, twisted and evil and that a desire for their company makes him less than a man.

Many males resolve this conflict in one of two ways... they use other men like meat, fucking them without any emotional intimacy or they errupt into violence (often they will do both.)

In this unfortunate young man, his hatred for mom, his need-repulsion towards men and his self-loathing blossomed into this tragedy.

...

Don't harsh on Labratory... I agree it's good to ask these questions. I also tend to feel compassion for everyone involved in nasty situations.

I spent a long time in my life feeling guilty because I always felt sorry for the rapists, the pedophiles, the murderers, the adulterers... I tried to generate the hate other people feel, but I can only manage an overwhelming sadness.

[Laboratory Mike]

Typhon, I think you hit the nail on the head. I must admit, my hypotheses weren't the best this time around, but hey, that's why we have forums like this.

Ultimately, I agree that this man's actions are the result of things that happened to him as an individual. As far as various lobby groups go, the most they would have contributed is a general attitude of indifference towards this man's situation, but not directly. Outside of that, I stand corrected on the reverse-hate concept. Sometimes I make bad assumptions when information is limited.

Other than that, I must admit one thing. The reason I "understand" this guy. I was once in shoes like the ones this man was in. I was 16, very heavily depressed becuase I came to grips with the fact that my year-older girlfriend was using me as a cuddle bitch while also dating other guys... and girls. A 14-year old friend of hers infomred me that she was molested by her, and the fact that my girlfriend often demanded me to bring her porn didn't help. Also, infighting at my church, and the removal of a youth pastor I looked up to, I felt like there was no where to go and no one to talk to. I'll be honest, I wanted to die... but not before I killed a bunch of people first.

The difference between me, and this unfortunate fellow, is that we made different choices. I decided to put my hope in God, leave that church, and ditch the girlfriend. It wasn't till college that I could find another Christian man to model myself after (and even though he doesn't know about the MRM, he often stands up for 'men' in conversation, one of the very few Christians I know who have picked up on what's going on!), and after many dates... still haven't found a worthwhile girlfriend. But, the point in case is that I was once tempted to do what the man in question did, so I have an understanding of what his reasoning might've been, but I have chosen otherwise, gotten past the storm, and I also know that he could have, and should have, chosen differently.

Besides this, I wonder how many more men are also in the same shoes. I  hope to reach such men before they degenarate and become violent. This should have been my main point fromt he beginning, though it wasn't. Therefore, I stand corrected.

[Quentin0352]

While I do not agree with his actions, to a degree I have to wonder what caused them. I am not sure how many remember the beating of the gay guy in a bar by Marines in Wilmington NC back in 1993 but the news tends to distort things heavily on gay beatings and it is because of that and other cases I am wondering. If you remember that case was all over national news with congress looking in to it and etc. What the news never reported was THEIR side of events though they went in great detail with the gay guy's claims.

I know the Marines that were involved in that case and they were hammered for what they did. Now look at what happened and picture if they were women and he was strait and picture how different the news reports would have been. Instead of some poor gay guy being beaten by bigoted Marines as was reported, they would have been praised. What the news failed to report was the gay guy was drunk and had REPEATEDLY been asked by the Marines to leave them alone. It wasn't a gay bar or anything like that but a normal bar with live band that they were there to see. The guy kept coming up to them, grabbing them, talking in VERY graphic terms what he would like to do with them and etc. They finally got tired of it and beat the crap out of him when he followed them outside of the bar as they tried to leave.

I have no problems with whatever your choice is in partners but I have had to deal with some gay men who are like that. They are loud, crud and refuse to leave strait men alone. I have no sympathy for them anymore than some asshole guy who stalks a woman or etc. If you can't show some simple RESPECT for the choices of others, then I don't care if you are gay, strait, man or woman, you get your ass kicked for that kind of behavior then maybe you will learn your lesson but the way the news reports favorably on all confrontations where a woman or homosexual is the victim has caused me to be skeptical on these matters when events happen.

[Quentin0352]

While I do not agree with his actions, to a degree I have to wonder what caused them. I am not sure how many remember the beating of the gay guy in a bar by Marines in Wilmington NC back in 1993 but the news tends to distort things heavily on gay beatings and it is because of that and other cases I am wondering. If you remember that case was all over national news with congress looking in to it and etc. What the news never reported was THEIR side of events though they went in great detail with the gay guy's claims.

I know the Marines that were involved in that case and they were hammered for what they did. Now look at what happened and picture if they were women and he was strait and picture how different the news reports would have been. Instead of some poor gay guy being beaten by bigoted Marines as was reported, they would have been praised. What the news failed to report was the gay guy was drunk and had REPEATEDLY been asked by the Marines to leave them alone. It wasn't a gay bar or anything like that but a normal bar with live band that they were there to see. The guy kept coming up to them, grabbing them, talking in VERY graphic terms what he would like to do with them and etc. They finally got tired of it and beat the crap out of him when he followed them outside of the bar as they tried to leave.

I have no problems with whatever your choice is in partners but I have had to deal with some gay men who are like that. They are loud, crud and refuse to leave strait men alone. I have no sympathy for them anymore than some asshole guy who stalks a woman or etc. If you can't show some simple RESPECT for the choices of others, then I don't care if you are gay, strait, man or woman, you get your ass kicked for that kind of behavior then maybe you will learn your lesson but the way the news reports favorably on all confrontations where a woman or homosexual is the victim has caused me to be skeptical on these matters when events happen.

[typhonblue]

Quentin,

He walked into a GAY bar... and a working class gay bar at that... and started randomly attacking people.

If he had been hit on before he started to randomly attack people... I would have to say, "too bad, so sad, you're in a GAY bar, what do you expect?"