Rape, lets end the discussion

Started by Gabriel, Mar 21, 2006, 06:39 PM

previous topic - next topic
Go Down

Gabriel

Rape

All right lets get this over with.

I have tried to convince people for a long time that rape is not big deal. I have argued people to the point where they have said that rape is a big deal

Rape is not a big deal. Women volunteer to have penises (and other objects) stuck into their eager vaginas all day, every day.
The fact that it is an unwanted penis would bother and upset most people. Yes it should be a crime. Yes it should be outlawed. But to crown these women as supervictims and throw money at them goes too too far. How traumatizing can having an unconsented penis inserted into the same orifice that bloody tampons are pulled out of.

Now for anyone foolish enough to say, hey Gab you won't want to be anally raped now would you. The answer is obviously "no", but serves to put me on the defense, while setting up a straw man. What is worse is this question has thrown this debate out of MRA hands for years.

It shouldn't. Because you are comparing apples to oranges. Equivocating vaginally raping a women to anally raping a male is false. I'll start at the top and work my way down. A vagina it is designed to for penises to be repeatedly shoved in and out of it and for babies to pushed out of it. It is muscular and comparably wide, it lubricates and expands, so if an object is forced into the vagina the probability of physical pain and tearing is low. Physical effects of a vaginal rape disappears within a few days at most.

An anus is not designed to have things stuck into it. It is a thin tube designed to temporarily hold semi-liquid feces. Forcing an object in there causes massive tearing, ripping, and bleeding - massive physical pain that can last for weeks.

This does not even get into the gender relational aspect of this. Straight women consent for men to have sex with them. Psychologically - the fact that it is a male sticking his penis into her vagina is not the problem. It is the male and when that it is the problem.

If you truly wanted to compare apples to apples. Then you would have to have a female raping a man. Using her vagina on his penis. That is the true comparison.

dr e

Gabriel -  I think you are making a mistake in thinking that everyone is like you.  They are not. Perhaps if you had a vagina and were raped it wouldn't be such a bad thing for you.  Everyone is different and for one person being in a head on collision would be a huge trauma and for another it might be fun.  Allowing others to have their own reactions is a part of maturity.  Denying others their reactions is exactly what has been done to men for centuries.

OTOH if you want to point out that the feminist machine relies on hysteria and a hierarchy of victimization I could see the power in bringing that to the fore but minimizing someones pain is a pretty risky business.  We simply don't have a painometer.
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

angryharry

That's exactly right Dr Evil, we do not have a painometer, but these days the courts and the media seem to rely rather heavily on what women allege their painometers show on their dials - something which cannot be measured objectively.

And in connection with rape, Germaine Greer said that she would rather be raped (absent violence) than lose her little finger because the latter would handicap and disfigure her forever whereas the former would involve nothing more than the insertion of a spongy object into a receptacle that was actually designed to receive such an object without duress.

Even though she is a feminist icon, she went up considerably in my estimation when she said this.

She also said this during a really tough interview (about 10 years ago) where Andrew Neil (former editor of the Sunday Times) launched at her over a number of issues. I saw the interview three times trying to find a loophole or an inconsistency in what she said about all sorts of things. And I have to say that, despite all my determination to dislike this woman, she came across exceedingly well, and there were no loopholes or inconsistencies.

LOL!
ttp://www.angryharry.com ... the only site in the entire world with the aforementioned domain address

dr e

Indeed we are at a huge disadvantage Harry with a woman's pain being a call to action and a man's pain being taboo.  

Love the Greer quote.   :wink:
Contact dr e  Lifeboats for the ladies and children, icy waters for the men.  Women have rights and men have responsibilties.

devia

Speaking of other "mra" websites... interesting crosspost.

Btw.. ever heard of fisting? It's actually a bit easier doing it it an ass.

SIAM

Reminds me of when I got mugged at gunpoint about 10 years ago (this will make sense and relate to the thread later on) - I was abducted for over an hour and marched towards a cash-machine (in south Manchester, this is not SO uncommon).  I was threatened with being shot almost continuously (I don't know if the pistol was a replica or real, but I took it as real, as you would do in that circumstance).  The two guys were obviously high on something which made the whole thing a lot more frightening.  Most of this time was spent standing still, with a gun at me, while these two guys argued over money.  Taking advantage of their inebriation on whatever substance, I offered to walk to the cash-machine alone while they had their eye on me. Incredibly, they agreed, and I had some distance between them - I saw they had started facing each other while they argued (with the gun pointing to the ground) and I ran like hell down an alley next to the ATM.  Never saw the guys again (hearing their shouts behind me), and reported the whole incident to the police.

Next day, I get a victim counsellor come round to my house.  I thought this was good of the police to do this.   However, I was soon told by this counsellor that I might face weeks of trauma, possibly with varying degrees of agrophobia, anxiety, depression.  She told me I had faced an horrific experience and that I should acknowledge that, and try not to brush it off.  After about 20 minutes of this, I felt weird.  She offered weekly counselling - I was happy to decline.  All I got from her was fear-mongering and an impending sense I was helpless to weeks of anxiety.  

As it happened, I did feel a bit scared to go outside simply because I was wary that these two guys might be local and they might remember me - that feeling lasted about 2 hours.  After that, normality resumed.

Far more traumatic experiences in my life: having appendicitis, having my finger caught in a door as a kid, and most of all - divorce.

My point: we all react differently to different circumstances.  Everybody's "painometer" is different and reacts to different things.  Some people might have been traumatised by an abduction.  Not me, not really.  However, when it comes to crimes like rape, we're told that for every women, it's one of the worst things that can happen to her - that all women's painometers are exactly the same.  This does nothing to help a lot of rape victims since I believe they COULD get on with their lives if they weren't reminded how "their lives are now devestated" by many so-called do-gooders.

angryharry

Yes, of course, people will react differently. And so the knee-jerk assumption that everyone is going to be traumatised by the same experience is crazy.

And it is also important to bear in mind that most rape accusations are made against those who are already in some form of intimate relationship with their accusers. By and large, these are not women who have been attacked at knifepoint in the dark, or anything similar.
ttp://www.angryharry.com ... the only site in the entire world with the aforementioned domain address

typhonblue

The painometer or thought-o-graph should not be involved in the assignment of punishment for infringing on someone else's property.

Rapists should be charged the going rate for an *authentic* rape experience (which must be in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.) If they can't pay then they can be dismantled for their constituent parts.

Subjectivity has no place in justice. :)

sorryisntgoodenough

My point: we all react differently to different circumstances. Everybody's "painometer" is different and reacts to different things. Some people might have been traumatised by an abduction. Not me, not really. However, when it comes to crimes like rape, we're told that for every women, it's one of the worst things that can happen to her - that all women's painometers are exactly the same. This does nothing to help a lot of rape victims since I believe they COULD get on with their lives if they weren't reminded how "their lives are now devestated" by many so-called do-gooders.


Great point here about how "mental health" services don't really serve anyone except the doctors who get rich of all of this BS.  I recall being dragged into therapy, for events including my mother's mental breakdown and divorce of parents, and separation from the Army.  Both times I feigned some kind of "condition" just to get them off my back.  Being forced to live in a sexually frustrated/paranoid social climate does FAR more  damage to my psyche than any violence or stress ever could.  Men thrive off of violent and uncertain conditions, shrinks should know this.  I remember meeting my first real live woman, a Thai woman in Germany, and feeling human for the first time in my life at age 21.  When will western doctors address the problem of sexual abandonment/neglect in males?

SIAM

Quote
The painometer or thought-o-graph should not be involved in the assignment of punishment for infringing on someone else's property.

Rapists should be charged the going rate for an *authentic* rape experience (which must be in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.) If they can't pay then they can be dismantled for their constituent parts.

Subjectivity has no place in justice.


And, what, objectively, is an authentic rape experience? Must it include a knife? How big must the knife be? Must the victim not know the rapist? These are all rather subjective criteria. In fact, I have subjectively missed out some criteria simply because I couldn't think of it.  You can't really compare rape to stealing an apple, because for rape,  judgements are made based on the suffering of the victim (whether that's right or not is another thread).  You steal an apple - that can be tangibly measured - you rape - how do you measure trauma? Feminists want judges to assume rape inflicts the deepest possible trauma to all victims.

angryharry

Hello SecondToDie

Quote
People seem to think that it's okay for a 25-year old woman to have sex with a 14-year old boy because they claim "he enjoyed it." There are a lot of 14-year old boys who would enjoy it if their teacher gave them beer or marijuana, yet no one thinks that's acceptable.


I think that your point is excellent, and it sums up my feeling about many of these sexual issues.

Many of these teacher cases are, indeed, the equivalent of giving 14 year olds beer or marijuana. It's wrong. It should be punished. But let us not get carried away by suggesting that such boys will necessarily be traumatised by such things, and let us not deny the fact that many of these boys are enthusiastically participating - if not, indeed, doing their very best to initiate such things.

Hello Sorryisntgoodenough

Quote
Great point here about how "mental health" services don't really serve anyone except the doctors who get rich of all of this BS. I recall being dragged into therapy, for events including my mother's mental breakdown and divorce of parents, and separation from the Army. Both times I feigned some kind of "condition" just to get them off my back.


I had to see a psychiatrist at age 13 because I had asthma.

Yep: I'm not kidding.

In those days asthma was believed by many to be the result of a difficult relationship with one's mother. (At about age 16 I discovered I had various allergies that were causing the asthma.)
ttp://www.angryharry.com ... the only site in the entire world with the aforementioned domain address

typhonblue

Quote from: "IMHO"
Quote
The painometer or thought-o-graph should not be involved in the assignment of punishment for infringing on someone else's property.

Rapists should be charged the going rate for an *authentic* rape experience (which must be in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.) If they can't pay then they can be dismantled for their constituent parts.

Subjectivity has no place in justice.


And, what, objectively, is an authentic rape experience?
Quote


Ask the professionals what the going rate is.

How else do you determine cost? An apple doesn't have an inherent cost, it depends on the quality, the demand, the supply, the "sizzle" of the apple... you have to ask someone in the know how much an apple costs, so too with any particular sex act.

Rob

To get a little Freudian, Nancy Friday wrote a book that consisted of letters written to her by New York women about their sexual fantasies. The book is called "My Secret Garden". LINK
Ms Friday annecdotally mentioned that one of the most common fantasies that was sent in to her was about being "forced" to perform sexual acts and some were about outright rape.

I've also read somewhere that the BDSM scenario is also VERY high on both male and females fantasy meter - something to do with having another person making you do something that is taboo and the "being forced" part takes the pervetedness out of it?

Now of course, these are only fantasies and not reality. (A man may fantasize about watching his wife with another man but that doesn't mean he wants to ruin his marriage by acting out said fantasy...blah...blah...blah).

But whether Ms Friday is right or not, I have heard elsewhere over the years that being "forced" is not that uncommon of a sexual fantasy.

Odd...isn't it? How something that can be a sexual fantasy can also be, by ever extension of the law, something that is so criminal that it is really only superceded by murder.

Yes, I know, we get into the whole "can a man be raped if he has an erection" question and the whole "a woman can be sexually stimulated and it can still be rape" thing.

But who ever heard of someone masturbating to the thought of having their car stolen?

(edited by dr e to shorten link)

typhonblue

The only difference is that in the majority of those fantasies the women have implicitly *chosen* their attacker.

SIAM

Quote
And, what, objectively, is an authentic rape experience?
Quote


Ask the professionals what the going rate is.

How else do you determine cost? An apple doesn't have an inherent cost, it depends on the quality, the demand, the supply, the "sizzle" of the apple... you have to ask someone in the know how much an apple costs, so too with any particular sex act.


The "price" paid for a rape - the trauma - is subjective - depends on the victim, depends on the severity.  You might be talking about the price paid by the perpetrator (not sure, think that's what you're alluding to) - I'm looking at it from the victim's perspective.  A woman raped by her husband after she feebly said "no, no" is one situation.  A woman with a loaded gun against her head while gang raped by 5 big guys over a 3 hour period is another situation.  Maybe the wife is more traumatised than the woman gang-raped - depends on the reaction. Feminists are trying to put a single "price" on all rape (i.e default to the worst possible trauma, the highest price).

Go Up