Women having difficulty finding men?

[lkanneg]

Indeed I'm not.  They do all the time.  It's just not anywhere near as easy to attract them at anywhere near the speed a pretty woman does.

So? And it's not near as easy for a man to attract a woman as it is for a woman to attract a man, because... women are allowed to engage in the behaviors that make them appear more attractive... make-up, seductive gestures, etc.

Men have a large array of behaviors that they are allowed to engage in that make them appear more attractive...have you ever had men attempt to pick you up in bars?  Admittedly, men's behaviors are much more verbal than visual, and women's are much more visual than verbal...which would be because men respond much more readily to visual stimulation and women's behaviors are geared towards that, and women respond much more readily to verbal stimulation and men's behaviors are geared towards that.  (of course all this is a generalization; there are always excepts to the rule)

And because women get to wait and pick and choose from numerous offers. Even if the offers are only *2*.

As far as a booty call or a one-night stand, you are absolutely right.  

Just because a man could *theoretically* ask out any sort of woman does not mean he will be successful in that endeavor.

Just because a woman could *theoretically* get picked up by any sort of man does not mean she will be successful in that endeavor.  I've seen women go evenings without a single pickup attempt, TB; it's not all that rare.

[lkanneg]

I hang around men a lot due to my professional proclivities (soldiering and engineering).  I've gotten to listen into a lot of conversations too.  Unfortunately, I'm missing your point about where they call a thin attractive blond a bitch because she has no ass, though--what is this saying?

You were saying men don't use a woman's attitude and behaviors(personality) to judge their initial attractions to her. I'm providing an example of a case where they do.

Your example is of men using a woman's negative physical characteristic to judge her personality.  How does this show that men use a woman's personality to judge her looks?

[Galt]

Men have a large array of behaviors that they are allowed to engage in that make them appear more attractive...have you ever had men attempt to pick you up in bars?

Mostly young or stupid men trying to imitate the behaviors that will get them a girl for the night.

By the way - the guy in the expensive suit in the bar is most probably NOT rich - LOL.  Look for the tattered jeans.  Women can - can - be a bit silly in being manipulated with regard to a romp for the night.

[lkanneg]

Really?  I've lost count of the number of May-December romances men have tried to have with me, with me being "May."    (Of course tha'ts an exaggeration.  They aren't countless.  But, several, including my most recent spouse.)  Seriously, older men/younger women is an embedded cultural dynamic.  It is truly unusual that you've never, not once, ever encountered it in anyone you've ever known in your whole life.

The biggest age gap that I know is 11 years. I'm sure it exists, but I haven't observed it in any great numbers.

I've also noticed you've said "men have tried to have with me..." sounds like they've failed. So they aren't *real* may-december romances.

So "may-december" romances only count if the two individuals involved end up marrying each other and staying married to each other til death do they part?

[typhonblue]

The bachelor rate today is <20%. At the turn of the century it was > 40%.

At the turn of the century super-models were unheard of and women were generally thought to be best plump.

Modern woman has done better and better for herself in terms of attracting a mate even as the beauty ideal becomes thinner and thinner.

So I'd say the beauty ideal must be doing something for women that it wasn't a hundred years ago.

Now, of those 20% of bachelors how many are desperate for female companionship? Desperate enough to go whoring themselves out in a bar to women(soliciting dates), take a woman who earns far less then them or simply will pay to be seen/have companionship with some sort of woman?

And of the 20+% of bachelorette women, how many of them are desperate for male companionship? How many of them are desperate enough to go whoring themselves out in bars to men (soliciting dates), take a man who earns far less then them or simply will pay to be seen/have companionship with some sort of woman?

[lkanneg]

Men are less likely to walk away from their wives, statistically, then women are to walk away from their husbands.

Very true.  However, statistically, how much more often, when the reason for leaving is somebody else, when it's the man leaving, how much more often is his new partner younger versus how often that's the case when it's the woman leaving?  Anybody have any statistics on that?

Statistically the age difference at first marriage is around 3 years. Statistically the age difference at *second* marriage is... 3 years.

I'm sure that's true, but...that isn't the answer to the question I asked.  Among those who divorce to marry somebody else, what is the average age gap and in what direction for men, and ditto for women?

[Galt]

So "may-december" romances only count if the two individuals involved end up marrying each other and staying married to each other til death do they part?

No, these relationships only "count" if the December man forks over some serious dough to the May woman.  Getting married is just the promise to fork over even more dough - for what, I'm not entirely sure.

[typhonblue]

Your example is of men using a woman's negative physical characteristic to judge her personality.  How does this show that men use a woman's personality to judge her looks?

Er... I believe the criteria was "being attracted to". I showed an example of men who were not attracted to a physically attractive woman because of her percieved attitude. Thus the measure of her attractiveness went down due to her personality.

[lkanneg]

Maybe this happens when a man is hugely rich and can afford to buy off his first wife, in which case I'm not sure what she's complaining about.

Really?  So, you'd be totally okay with it if your husband dumped you for a hot young babe and gave you a big wad of cash to, er, make up for it?  ...for real?

I've noticed that people generally end up with the type of person that they deserve.

Hmm...I'm trying to make this response answer my actual question...the best I can come up with is, you're saying that that wouldn't ever happen to you because you don't deserve it, and when women are left by their husbands for a younger hotter woman, they've always deserved it?

[lkanneg]

<whew> all done.  I have to go clean stuff up now.  

[typhonblue]

Statistically the age difference at first marriage is around 3 years. Statistically the age difference at *second* marriage is... 3 years.

I'm sure that's true, but...that isn't the answer to the question I asked.  Among those who divorce to marry somebody else, what is the average age gap and in what direction for men, and ditto for women?

Er... I assume people who marry a second time have divorced somebody once.

Besides, if there is a significant subset of men who leave their original wives to marry younger women at second marriage, IT SHOUD AFFECT THE AVERAGE BY INCREASING IT WHEN COMPARED TO THE AGE DIFFERENTIAL AT FIRST MARRIAGE. If it does not increase it, then there is no significant subset of men who marry younger women at second marriage. Or, alternatively, this subset is offset by a significant subset of WOMEN marrying younger men.

[typhonblue]

Hmm...I'm trying to make this response answer my actual question...the best I can come up with is, you're saying that that wouldn't ever happen to you because you don't deserve it, and when women are left by their husbands for a younger hotter woman, they've always deserved it?

I think if a woman's being left by a man, considering the serious legal and social penalties for men in divorce, then she has probably done something beyond the pale. Further I believe about 1/3 of the population is actually capable of maintaining an intimate bond with a person of the opposite sex, and they usually don't get divorces. So the remaining 2/3s probably aren't affected too emotinally since they aren't keyed to getting much from the opposite sex in the first place. (This is different for men who actively sacrifice other relationships for the one they have with their wives. She becomes his emotional support system and thus her loss is far more devestating. Also, due to the process of being raised by women, men *start out* more able to identify with women then women with men.)

Now, I don't see any evidence of the phenomenon you describe, men leaving their first wives in any great numbers for younger women. Once again, the age difference at first marriage is 3 years. The age difference at second marriage is 3 years. Therefore men are divorcing women three years younger then them to marry women who are three years younger then them (on average.) There is nothing to suggest that at second marriage men are any more likely to marry a much younger women. And if they are, then there is an equal subset of women marrying much younger men to balance them out.

[lkanneg]

Rather than welfare, you'll usually find your single jobless man living with (off) Mom and Dad.

And -- rather than welfare, you'll find the married jobless woman living off the husband (who may have just found a job and moved out from mom and dad).

Whoops, I forgot another dimension of "joblessness."  I also don't consider a man or woman who is jobless by choice, but taking care of under-school-age children or is homeschooling school-age children, to be a drone.

What I find interesting is that no one - and I really mean no one - ever looks at the effect of women leeching off men.  I'm not saying all women do it, I'm saying that no one ever considers or looks at what goes on in this regard.

Maybe because it's a fairly recent cultural phenomena to expect women to work outside the home?  And also because, when children aren't involved, it is pretty rare.  I've actually only ever known one woman who lived with a man, had no kids, and also had no job.  We did actually used to discuss this at work (the man in question was a coworker of ours) and how bizarre it was.  The woman was universally sneered at by males and females alike.  The man...we didn't sneer at him.  He was kind of an unusual person, but we all liked him...but we really didn't get why he was willing to participate in this arrangement.  

Women "marry up" as a general rule (I think 80% or so - but then we have to remember the ward nurse who "marries down" by marrying the guy with the MD doing his residency for low pay in plastic surgery - yeah, we get the drift).

One caveat to women "marrying up;" to be fair, you must admit that a lot more men are already "up" compared to women in the first place.  It'd be impossible for most women to marry down.  There aren't enough men that are "down" from women to enable the majority of women to marry them.

[lkanneg]

Women believe sex is something they give to men. (Thus elevating men's status via the gift of sex.)

Men believe sex is something they take from women. (Thus degrading them in the process. If you take something, doesn't the person you've taken from have less?)

The more sex a woman gives, the more degraded she becomes.

The more sex a man recieves, the more elevated a man becomes.

Okay, I think I've encountered this theory before, though I don't function within it's framework personally.

But at each transaction he feels like he is taking something from her and "sullying" her. Most men are compassionate so probably feel like they should compensate the woman somehow (if they buy into this dynamic). The ones who aren't (and buy into the dynamic) relish the degredation.

I have no idea if most men are compassionate, but that's only because I have no idea if most people regardless of gender are compassionate.  I always hope they are, of course.  My impression has always been, when we're talking about casual sex, that the man doesn't really think much one way or the other about what a woman's particular emotional state is afterwards.  When we are talking about sex within a serious relationship, this is no longer true (generally speaking, of course).  In a healthy relationship, I don't think this dynamic exists.  In an unhealthy one, it very may well.

But what if this whole system is an artificial construct designed to get men feeling guilty and in debt to women for a mutually pleasurable and beneficial act?

My theory would be that the whole system is an artificial construct designed around the historical need to control human reproduction, but that's just my two cents.

[lkanneg]

I'm reading that it says that health care and plastic surgery are unlikely to be factors in the differential between the income of ugly vs. beautiful people.

Make-up, which young people still use frequently, could account for the 5% bonus ugly women get in the income department compared to ugly men. But, of course, cosmetics can't do everything, so ugly women are still penalized 5%.

Now... if cosmetics have nothing to do with the fact ugly men are penalized more then ugly women, then it becomes even more mysterious.

Perhaps people feel free to harsh on ugly men, but not on ugly women?

Alternate theory:  the majority of people in supervisory positions are male, and these are the people that control the income and raises of those below them.  No matter how ugly a young woman is, she still has something attractive to men (heterosexual men, anyway)--a young height-weight proportional female body.  (You notice that the stats show that fat women drop off the charts, below ugly men as well, in salary loss.)  The majority of males in supervisory positions are also heterosexual.  An ugly young man has nothing that a heterosexual male boss finds attractive, hence the difference.