ARE THERE ANY PRO FEMINISTS ON THIS WEBSITE?

Started by manhoodsbliss, May 19, 2006, 12:24 PM

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Malakas

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Point taken, but men spend a lot on stuff they don't need as well. Men's toys tend to be veeeeerrrry expensive. One big screen plasma TV would buy a semi full of cosmetics. Golf club memberships, commercial snowblowers, hot cars...... I don't play golf, I shovel snow by hand, and I drive a "mom" car that was a demo I got a great deal on.
And I'm not a recreational shopper in any case. We all have our weaknesses I suppose, and mine don't reside at the mall. But I enjoy spending time with my girlfriends there occasionally, and I don't think that makes us evil spendthrifts or lazyasses. Guys have their recreational together time too and that's fine - my point is that guys don't generally choose to recreate together at the mall. That's a decidedly female activity, but it's no more evil than guys smoking cigars and losing money to each other over the poker table. To each his own, and that's fine.
Although I think I could really get into poker.
I know what you mean about trinkets - I know people like that. I think some people have a compulsion about collecting things. And the trinket collectors are women, I'll give you that. I personally don't care for clutter.
But I also know a lot of men who have a lot of very expensive toys. The spending thing can and does go both ways.
Would ya'all be deliriously happy if you could eat rice three times a day and still afford to send your kids to school?
'm an asylum seeker. Don't send me back.

Christiane

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Ah, but I think that the rub here is that when the guy is spending money on cars, cigars, etc., it's usually money that he's earned (you know, the 72 cents for every dollar earnings gap - there is no "pay" gap). On the other hand, many of those women you see wandering around the mall during weekday business hours are spending money that they didn't earn; they're shopping on their husband's, ex-husband's, et al. dime while he's at work earning dough to pay off her credit card bills.


hmmmm....   I think maybe the best way to respond is to revert to the old cliche "every relationship is different".

What seems to lie just beneath the surface of your comment is a rejection of the idea that assets accumulated during a marriage are jointly owned.  

I don't agree with you that there are droves of women out there raping the wallets of their overworked husbands.   That's just not ever been my observation.   It happens, but rarely.   I can only think of one real life couple I know where the wife ran amock with his money - and she was and still is seriously mentally ill.   She shopped in her manic state.

Let me put this question to you:   In a situation where a husband earns all or most of the income for the family, why would the wife be more inclined to spend that money wastefully?   What difference does it make?  No matter who earned it, there's a finite pool of family money, and both partners have a vested interest in their collective financial health.

In other words, what logic would there be for me to adopt different spending patterns based on whether I earned the money or he did?   At the end of the day, we're both on the hook for the bills.

Galt

Quote from: "Christiane"
hmmmm....   I think maybe the best way to respond is to revert to the old cliche "every relationship is different".

What seems to lie just beneath the surface of your comment is a rejection of the idea that assets accumulated during a marriage are jointly owned.  

I don't agree with you that there are droves of women out there raping the wallets of their overworked husbands.   That's just not ever been my observation.   It happens, but rarely.   I can only think of one real life couple I know where the wife ran amock with his money - and she was and still is seriously mentally ill.   She shopped in her manic state.

Let me put this question to you:   In a situation where a husband earns all or most of the income for the family, why would the wife be more inclined to spend that money wastefully?   What difference does it make?  No matter who earned it, there's a finite pool of family money, and both partners have a vested interest in their collective financial health.

In other words, what logic would there be for me to adopt different spending patterns based on whether I earned the money or he did?   At the end of the day, we're both on the hook for the bills.


I think I get the drift from your answer "which side you're on" in the earning question.

If your husband earns the money, you can be damn happy - I think more and more men are catching on.  I'd never get into that one-sided situation.

Christiane

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If your husband earns the money, you can be damn happy - I think more and more men are catching on. I'd never get into that one-sided situation.


Catching on to what?   Like, a stay at home parent is somehow getting a free ride?    Let me guess - you're not a stay at home parent, right?

In my perfect world, there would be more stay at home dads.

Men's Rights Activist

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And I'm not a recreational shopper in any case. We all have our weaknesses I suppose, and mine don't reside at the mall. But I enjoy spending time with my girlfriends there occasionally, and I don't think that makes us evil spendthrifts or lazyasses. Guys have their recreational together time too and that's fine - my point is that guys don't generally choose to recreate together at the mall. That's a decidedly female activity, but it's no more evil than guys smoking cigars and losing money to each other over the poker table. To each his own, and that's fine.


I don't smoke and have never played poker, but I do use my money to support men's rights 501 (c)3 organizations and other worthwhile endeavors.  

Lastly, this little tidbit from a Pocketbook Power book review at Amazon.com.
http://tinyurl.com/h8pd7
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While women make up 52.1 percent of the U.S. population, they control two-thirds of the nation's disposable income. In Pocketbook Power noted marketing expert and bestselling author Bernice Kanner describes how female spending power has radically transformed the face of advertising and marketing over the past several decades. Combining compelling demographic and statistical information with eye-opening and entertaining "tales from the trenches," she explores how the ad world has responded to a female-dominated marketplace.


and

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Not too long ago, legendary adman David Ogilvy chided his peers for talking down to women. He berated those who ignored women or discounted them, misconstruing men's higher paychecks to mean greater spending clout. And he was right. According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, women--who comprise just over 51 percent of the U.S. population, making them the largest consumer segment in the country--control six trillion dollars in buying power annually. Statistics show that women make 88 percent of all U.S. retail purchases. Some experts even predict that, by 2020, women will control most of the money in America.
Life, Liberty, & Pursuit of Happiness are fundamental rights for all (including males), & not contingent on gender feminist approval or denial. Consider my "Independence" from all tyrannical gender feminist ideology "Declared" - Here & Now!

Galt

Quote from: "Christiane"
In my perfect world, there would be more stay at home dads.


That's pretty easy to bring about if you personally want it: Just "marry down" and then work your ass off.

What a coincidence, I'll bet your husband is able to make more money than you, so you "both decided" that your working wouldn't make economic sense. Ever again, LOL.

Christiane

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While women make up 52.1 percent of the U.S. population, they control two-thirds of the nation's disposable income.


MRA, I don't dispute that data at all.   That's sure true in my experience.  But it doesn't follow that women are making more of the purchasing decisions because we're stealing our men's money.    Most men I know (with a couple of exceptions) would rather not spend a day shopping if they didn't  have to.

contrarymary

Quote from: "Christiane"
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If your husband earns the money, you can be damn happy - I think more and more men are catching on. I'd never get into that one-sided situation.


Catching on to what?   Like, a stay at home parent is somehow getting a free ride?    Let me guess - you're not a stay at home parent, right?

In my perfect world, there would be more stay at home dads.


:D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D
quot;I can resist anything but temptation."

 Oscar Wilde

Christiane

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What a coincidence, I'll bet your husband is able to make more money than you, so you "both decided" that your working wouldn't make economic sense. Ever again, LOL.


Actually, we both DID make that decision.   He's older than I am, more highly educated and absolutely able to make more money.   I am not capable, either by natural ability or training, to do what he does.   But I gave up a job I loved, and it's not been without some regret.   We both had very demanding jobs at that time, lots of late nights, travel, etc.   Our choice was to either not have a family, or to make some changes in our job situation in order to make room for children in our lives.   I've continued to work part time though, and run my own business from home for the past 4 years.   He and I are both very busy people and we both work very hard.   Just like every other hard working American !  

All of which is irrelevant to the general issue.   I can only speak from my experience.  I'm sure you also have good reasons which make sense to you, for making the choices you make.

contrarymary

Quote from: "Galt"
Quote from: "Christiane"
In my perfect world, there would be more stay at home dads.


That's pretty easy to bring about if you personally want it: Just "marry down" and then work your ass off.

What a coincidence, I'll bet your husband is able to make more money than you, so you "both decided" that your working wouldn't make economic sense. Ever again, LOL.


Galt, I hope you know how much I do like and respect you, but don' t you feel that's an unfair assumption?
quot;I can resist anything but temptation."

 Oscar Wilde

NobleTry

Quote from: "Christiane"
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While women make up 52.1 percent of the U.S. population, they control two-thirds of the nation's disposable income.


MRA, I don't dispute that data at all.   That's sure true in my experience.  But it doesn't follow that women are making more of the purchasing decisions because we're stealing our men's money.    Most men I know (with a couple of exceptions) would rather not spend a day shopping if they didn't  have to.


I am not following what you are saying here because I think you are confused. Most men I know would rather not spend a day shopping if they didn't have to, either, because most men I know consider "shopping" a waste of time, effort, and--most importantly--money. Yes, that is correct. Most men realize that the easiest way to piss away your hard-earned money is to not save it or invest it but to, guess what, go "shopping" (as conceptualized by most American women). I explained earlier that my definition of "shopping" and your definition of "shopping" were two different things. Let me clarify and expand: A man, when on his own in singlehood, will generally go to a store to purchase specific items that he requires. That is what a man calls "going to the store." I realize this is a foreign concept to most American women. Because, generally, when an American woman announces she is going "shopping", this means that she is going to do exactly what you described earlier: that is, this is recreational time for her with her friends, during which she will forage among numerous stores making a variety of purchases of items she and her family may or may not really "need". Because, generally, at this point in the game, "need" is not the goal. As you admitted earlier. "Recreation" is the goal. "Unwinding" is the goal. "Relationship" is the goal with her and her friends. When our typical American woman finally returns home with bags full of items from said stores, she announces happily to her husband: "Look at all the money I saved." And the man is thinking to himself: "WTF?!" This, generally, is woman's "logic". And why does the American husband "allow" this to go on and continue? Because in his core he talks himself into believing that this is just "the way it is", there is no other way, his kind, loving wife really must know what's best, afterall, because that is the meme (yes, look that word up in the dictionary) he's been force fed from society, and culture, and media, from his childhood. Something must be wrong with him! That, in his core, is the bottom line response. As the man, it's his job to "be the man", to not complain, to "take it like a man". You ask earlier why would a woman spend money she doesn't have? And in your experience most women don't do this sort of thing, or aren't "stealing" their husband's money? My response to that is: then you need more experience. Look around. Read books and articles. Educate yourself on this topic (and others). Open your eyes to what is all around you. For you to state some of the things you state is evidence that your mind is closed to the facts, the reality.

I've belabored my point with this little vignette, and also it's a bit of a red herring in this discussion because I've opened myself up for some solitary woman to say, "But that's not me!" or "That's not how it is in our house." Well, goody for you. Specifically. Exceptionally. Because that's all it is: the exception to the rule. It's not the rule. Because the larger point remains: Women control most of the money in this economy.

How you and your man specifically work things out is really of no consequence in this discussion, because in this thread what I'm interested in is the larger picture. And the larger picture remains firmly in the numbered items I listed above.

manhoodsbliss

I think it is important for Mothers to stay at home, and I think its a good thing that women, even now dedicate themsleves to family.  There was a recent article in a newspaper about women and motherhood and someone (i forget the name) said it was a woman's duty to have children. does anyone agree with this?  

i could see for and against personally.  Christiane, id be interested in your view on this?  It is hard to distinguish whether our gender and its characteristics are socially constructed, so if things had been different would men have been caring and nurturing. If it is down to biological instincs then I think it is vital that women stay at home with the children.
 will wash the world

Laboratory Mike

Quote from: "manhoodsbliss"

i like ur approach mens activist man. i will definetley be checkig out this independant womens forum.

see im only 21 so i have a lot to learn and i appreciate my views may appear childish or ignorant, but thats why i came here. i might as well learn something.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


manhoodsblisshahahahahahaahahahaaha how amazing. i have made no personal attacks on peoples intellect because i dont judge people so harshly.

YES A FUCKING DISSERATION. AND GOING INTO MY THIRD YEAR

AND YOU'LL BE SUPRISED TO KNOW IM DUE FOR A FIRST.  I MAY MAKE SILLY GRAMMATICAL ERRORS AND MY STRENGH MAY NOT BE IN GOVERNMENT STATISTICS, COMPLEX THEORIES ETC ETC. BUT I HAPPEN TO RELY ON MORE INFORMATION THAN WHAT POLITICS TELLS ME.


I am late tot his post, and my point to make is probably exhausted already... but please, don't write in all caps. It represents shouting, and is quite inconsiderate in a forum.

For now, I'll be analyzing some of your posts. I haven't been here in a while. But for now, I would most certainly suggest that you read this article by Angry Harry:

http://www.angryharry.com/eswerewomenoppressedinthewest.htm

You seem to show some interest about "whether our gender and its characteristics are socially constructed," and in the case of this article, if you aren't initially offended, provides a different framework of what is and isn't "socially constructed."

And one more thing, could you please explain what your dissertation is about, and what you are studying? I am a student like you (same year, in fact), and am doing research with hopes of getting published. It's always interesting to see what others are doing.

Men's Rights Activist

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"There was a recent article in a newspaper about women and motherhood and someone (i forget the name) said it was a woman's duty to have children. does anyone agree with this?"


I don't think the human species is about to go extinct for lack of child births.  In fact, I am a strong proponent of letting men stay at home in rocking chairs, and have American (western) women fight all wars until as many women have died in wars as have men.  At the point women, when female deaths and casualties catch up, then we should send 50/50 men and women, if our countries insist we must send people to war.  Yea, let women go and fight all those nasty bad foreign men that the gender feminists are always complaining about.

I guess the point I'm really trying to make is, with 40,000,000 aborted babies over the past 40 years in America, there is absolutely no need whatsoever to protect women as "sacred" child bearers.

EQUALITY!  YOU CAN'T HANDLE REAL EQUALITY!
Life, Liberty, & Pursuit of Happiness are fundamental rights for all (including males), & not contingent on gender feminist approval or denial. Consider my "Independence" from all tyrannical gender feminist ideology "Declared" - Here & Now!

Men's Rights Activist

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It is hard to distinguish whether our gender and its characteristics are socially constructed, so if things had been different would men have been caring and nurturing. If it is down to biological instincs then I think it is vital that women stay at home with the children.


Men are caring and nurturing.  I was raised on a farm in the mid-west so Mom and Dad were both accessible.  It was only with industrialization and the invention of jobs outside the home-place that men were sacrificed for the sake of the almighty dollar and what it could provide for families.

Sex certainly is a biological construction, but many societal gender roles are constructed.  My mom could drive a tractor, and chop chicken heads off with an ax, but she taught me how to embroidery as a child.  I'm still handy with a needle.  

We were an independent lot.  When Dad went to the store Mom would give him a shopping list: coffee, flower, sugar and salt.  Everything else we grew.  

All that being said, IMO, some gender roles are best left to men and some best left to women, i.e. my Mom could milk cows, but it was Dad's job.  He had the strong hands to be able to milk half a dozen cows a day.  My favorite recollection of milking cows was squirting little kitties in the face with milk.

Work on the farm was certainly far from idyllic.  It was brutally hard work.  My Mom got really bad arthritis in her hands in old age, and I suspect it was from all the hard work she did.  My Father picked tons and tons and tons of corn by hand and did lots of other hard work like cutting all the wood for winter, but he didn't get arthritis in his hands.  

The skin on Dads hands was always so rough it felt like he could have sanded boards with it.  Yet, as a little boy I can remember him affectionately stroking my face many times with his rough hands.

In the few short months of summer, Mom planted, harvested and canned a garden as well as lots of fruit from the trees in the orchard.  Did I mention that we very seldom ever bought much from grocery stores?

I went back for my Father's funeral the winter he died and I will never forget seeing the thermometer hit 30 degrees below zero ( Fahrenheit ).  That was actual temperature, not wind chill.  It was the coldest recorded temperature in the history of the state by about 20 degrees.  It was as if the whole earth was in mourning and honoring a great man.
Life, Liberty, & Pursuit of Happiness are fundamental rights for all (including males), & not contingent on gender feminist approval or denial. Consider my "Independence" from all tyrannical gender feminist ideology "Declared" - Here & Now!

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