Still no mention that 97+% of casualties are men

[johnnyp]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13237981/

Pentagon: U.S. death toll in Iraq reaches 2,500
Announcement comes as U.S.-led forces launch Baghdad security crackdown

MSNBC News Services
Updated: 57 minutes ago
BAGHDAD, Iraq - The number of U.S. military deaths in Iraq has reached 2,500, the Pentagon said Thursday, more than three years into a conflict that finds U.S.-led forces locked in a struggle with a resilient insurgency.

In addition, the Pentagon said 18,490 U.S. troops have been wounded in the war, which began in March 2003 with a U.S.-led invasion to topple President Saddam Hussein. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been killed.

This week, about 50,000 Iraqi troops, supported by more than 7,000 U.S.-led forces, launched a security crackdown in Baghdad aimed at putting further pressure on militants.

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki has promised the crackdown would not target any ethnic or sectarian group.

He has also opened the door for talks with insurgents opposed to the country's political process, but he said any negotiations would exclude terrorist groups.

[Sir Percy]

Underscored. Men dying, men wounded, in the main. My great sympathies and all honour to them.

Now. To be contentious and with absolutly no disrespect intended. The pigs ear that has been made of the job is a scandal. Personally I applaude the action to remove the psychos and change the regime but to do so when we have yet to get any sort of understanding of just how to do it without slaughtering so many people, many of whom are children, is a real connundrum. The force that took Iraq, did so with the greatest efficiency possible and a remarkable limitation on loss of life. But we have no idea how to bring peace to a type of people who are naturally violent and volatile. As someone once said, "If you bite off more than you can  chew, chew like hell".

Meanwhile men die. Due to imcompetence. The American administration ( and its allies) is presiding over a morbid farce internationally while letting the home base fall to an even more emotionally unstable population of femonazis. And they are as blind to them at home as they were to resistance in Iraq.

[BRIAN]

The American administration ( and its allies) is presiding over a morbid farce internationally while letting the home base fall to an even more emotionally unstable population of femonazis. And they are as blind to them at home as they were to resistance in Iraq.

With all due respect Sir Percy "Thou should flushest out thine helm". We must fight the Islamofacists on their ground or we will fight them on our streets and fields. So far the casualties millitary and civilian are on the order of 1000 times less than in WWII. I also take exception to your saying that "we" are " slaughtering so many people, many of whom are children".  "We" are not "slaughtering children", the jihadis intent on taking over by using the old KGB template are the ones " slaughtering so many people, many of whom are children". Its easy to point fingers and lay blame on the U.S.A. but then it was the World Trade Center that the Islamofacists flew jumbo jets into not the Sydney Oprea house durring a performance of La Boheme. If it was 3000 dead Australian Civilians on 9/11/01 instead of 3000 dead americans you would change your tune.

Back on topic though, I feel like it is understood that most of the casualties are men. We many be looking for insult here where there is none intended.

[gwallan]

The Sydney Opera House would likely be almost empty during a performance of La Boheme. The Melbourne Cricket Ground on the last Saturday in September - AFL Grand Final - would be a far better choice. A hundred thousand plus. Although given they're all likely to be from Perth and Adelaide this year it might be done by a disgruntled Victorian rather than a muslim fanatic.

[Sir Percy]

I also take exception to your saying that "we" are " slaughtering so many people, many of whom are children". "We" are not "slaughtering children", the jihadis intent on taking over by using the old KGB template are the ones " slaughtering so many people, many of whom are children". Its easy to point fingers and lay blame on the U.S.A. but then it was the World Trade Center that the Islamofacists flew jumbo jets into not the Sydney Oprea house durring a performance of La Boheme. If it was 3000 dead Australian Civilians on 9/11/01 instead of 3000 dead americans you would change your tune.

I said what I would say could be contentious.

1. I would not change my tune, Brian. It wasn't just 3000 Americans at the WTC. Australians died in 9/11 and people from many other countries too.  Australians died in Bali.  Britons and others died in London. Islamofacism must be fought. Of course. My point is that our leaders have no idea how to do it. I do not blame the USA. No one listened to Maj Gen Dick Clutterbuck back in the 70's. What we are doing is similar to WW! where our leaders threw wave after wave of men at barbed wire and machine guns because they had no clue as to what else to do. We don't know how to fight this enemy and our leaders are too insensitive to the truth of their own lack of vision.

2. I do not blame the soldiers on the ground. Their job is well nigh impossible. They are honoured in my book. They are doing the best they can and its isn't good enough.

3. We - Australians and British, I am both - are there too. Sure the islamofacists are slaughtering with deliberate intent but we are through sheer inability to discriminate with sufficient care. Innocent men, women and children, people, are dying at our hand as well as the enemy's, unecessarily. There has to be a better way. I don't know what it is. The Americans are learning what the British had to learn in Northern Ireland ( whilst Americans were sending money and arms to the IRA, I might add).

Please do not see my words as offensive. I am simply trying to recognise an unpaletable truth. We are making a pigs ear of the job. If offense is to be found it is in the concept of fighting on someome else's territory. Sure it has to be done, but the whole thing isn't about saving America from the inconvenience of a war on their soil. War wasn't declared on America. It was declared on the whole Anglophile, western civilisation. Just as feminazis have. The KGB template is alive and well in the USA.

[BRIAN]

1. I would not change my tune, Brian. It wasn't just 3000 Americans at the WTC. Australians died in 9/11 and people from many other countries too. Australians died in Bali. Britons and others died in London. Islamofacism must be fought. Of course. My point is that our leaders have no idea how to do it. I do not blame the USA. No one listened to Maj Gen Dick Clutterbuck back in the 70's. What we are doing is similar to WW! where our leaders threw wave after wave of men at barbed wire and machine guns because they had no clue as to what else to do. We don't know how to fight this enemy and our leaders are too insensitive to the truth of their own lack of vision.

Sir Percy, The majority of those killed were Americans. The WTC attacks were aimed dileberately at the U.S.A. I disagree that we don't know what we are doing. We are doing the only things that we can do, patrol, stand sentry, man checkpoints and try to keep some order untill the Iraqis get organized enough to do it themselves. You are correct that we did not do anything back in the 70's when organizations like the PLO first came into being, We should have. We are now forced with having to do it the hard way like we had to do in 1941 because the world let Hittler and Tojo fester from 1930 on. You see what an appeasement policy and Neville Chamberlains "peace with honor" got the world.

2. I do not blame the soldiers on the ground. Their job is well nigh impossible. They are honoured in my book. They are doing the best they can and its isn't good enough.

Bovine Scatt!

Our troops are doing great work. We have simply forgotten that real life isn't like a TV progam where everything is wrapped up in a neat bundle in 30 minutes to an hour. The job they are doing isn't impossible it is very hard though and will be done only after much hard work and some bleeding. I am glad you hold them in high esteme though they deserve it.

3. We - Australians and British, I am both - are there too. Sure the islamofacists are slaughtering with deliberate intent but we are through sheer inability to discriminate with sufficient care. Innocent men, women and children, people, are dying at our hand as well as the enemy's, unecessarily. There has to be a better way. I don't know what it is. The Americans are learning what the British had to learn in Northern Ireland ( whilst Americans were sending money and arms to the IRA, I might add).

I realize that you were an ATC and thus not on the sharp end of things like I was but you have to know that is a deliberate mischaracterization of what is happening. The insurgents are diliberately trying to plunge the country into a civil war allong the Sunni\Shiite sectarian line so they can sieze power. And while they are murdering civilians to accomplish that goal our troops are taking great pains to avoid collateral dammage. It is however impossible to not have some civilian casualties. We are not firebombing Dresden like the RAF did in WWII though. I don't see how hundreds of years of Brittish subjugation of Ireland has to do with the current situation but since you brought it up, of course Americans were sending money and arms to the Irish. There are millions of Americans of Irish ancestry and I imagine they would have an intrest in sending their family and freinds back in the old country the means to fight off an occupying opressor. I guess the Britts hang on to Ulster now just to say they are still an Empire.

Please do not see my words as offensive. I am simply trying to recognise an unpaletable truth. We are making a pigs ear of the job. If offense is to be found it is in the concept of fighting on someome else's territory. Sure it has to be done, but the whole thing isn't about saving America from the inconvenience of a war on their soil. War wasn't declared on America. It was declared on the whole Anglophile, western civilisation. Just as feminazis have. The KGB template is alive and well in the USA.

I take offense anytime some one deliberately spreads dis-information about honorable american fighting men. You think we are making "a pigs ear of the job" thats your opinion and its wrong headed at best. As for making war on the other guys ground thats how you know you are winning. Would the allias have won WWII by not invading Germany and pushing across the Rhine? You are correct that the islamofacists are waging war on western civilisation not just the U.S.A. but the U.S.A. is the main target. The KGB template for insurgent wars has always been to start  a civil war, kill off the leadership of the country creating a power vacuum and then fill the vacuum with your own people. I don't know how that applies to the situation here in the U.S.A unless you are trying to compare President George W. Bush to Joseph Stallin.

[gwallan]

The KGB template for insurgent wars has always been to start  a civil war, kill off the leadership of the country creating a power vacuum and then fill the vacuum with your own people.

You think only the KGB did this. Do a google on Chile, Allende, Pinochet and CIA. You might find things like these:-
Declassified Documents Relating to the Military Coup in Chile

[Sir Percy]

You seem to be making a hash of understanding the points I make, Brian and then being mendacious as a response.

I do not call for appeasment. I seek a better, more effective way of fighting a scourge.

Error. The KGB point was in relation to Femonazism, not Bush, and a response to you bringing it up.

The personal slur. I may have been an ATO and your ATOs may well not be at the sharp end enough for your liking, but I was jungle fighting, in firefights in the swamps and it doesn't get much sharper. I have killed and seen my comrades killed.  So fuck off.

Ignorance. Clutterbuck didn't consider the PLO to be the first or even specific. Patrice Lamumba University in Moscow was the terrorist trainer/exporter.

Excuser. The Northern Irish VOTED democratically to be part of Great Britain and American private monies simply supplemented the KGB's Irish Mayhem budget to dismember democratic people, shoot fathers infront of their children, blow up high street shops, and bring terror. Look at the beam in your own eye.

More excusism. Don't give me 400 year old shit about Irish 'oppression' like some femonazi re-creating non existent strife. Do you want your children's children to use that mendacity in 400 years time allowing muslim terrorists a free pass at continuing more WTCs or spreading terror in Baton Rouge and Boston, paid for by an allies' money who then say the terrorists have a point? Get real or put your dildo to good use.

More slur. I can assure you I do not see real life as a TV program. Maybe you have been watching too much 'West Wing' and old John Wayne movies.

Whining. Majorities of dead americans at the WTC do not reduce the pain of dead Australians and British and a host of other nations. That's why we fight alongside you in Iraq, thicko.

Mendacity. I accepted fighting on others soil as a neccesity. I honoured American soldiers' efforts, so keep your 'bovine scatt' to yourself.

Sheer gall.

We are now forced with having to do it the hard way like we had to do in 1941 because the world let Hittler and Tojo fester from 1930 on

WE? What you mean 'WE, white eyes? The rest of the 'world', sunshine. was fighting, dying in 1939 to 41 while America sat on its arse making its mind up.

Deliberate misapprehension. I do not spread dis-information. The effort in Iraq is honourable but not enough and not well enough done.  As your own General Staff are continually saying. Few things are done as well as we would hope despite best efforts. That is a POV. It is a reasonable critique and calling for managing a better way. Name me a war which went well and can be uncritically accepted as a 'perfect' execution. We strive to do better. Appeasement isn't one of the options I seek unlike America for several years when Britain stood alone.

Now wind your neck in and call for all-female battalions to balance the male dead. Women who are 'equal' after all, should be in there 'doing it better'. If a fuck-up is to be applauded, let them fuck it up for a change.[/quote]

[johnnyp]

what the hell does this debate have to do with the fact that the media does not think it is news worthy that nearly all of the casualties are men?  The US is a country that claims equality as bedrock principle, yet there is abselutly no equality in this critical number.

[BRIAN]

Error. The KGB point was in relation to Femonazism, not Bush, and a response to you bringing it up.

Then just maybe you should have been a bit more clear. It seamed to me you were comparing The U.S.A. to Communist Russia.

I do not call for appeasment. I seek a better, more effective way of fighting a scourge.

Then what is your better plan that you are calling for? Lay it out for us. It seems to me you are like the Monday morning QB at this point.  

The personal slur. I may have been an ATO and your ATOs may well not be at the sharp end enough for your liking, but I was jungle fighting, in firefights in the swamps and it doesn't get much sharper. I have killed and seen my comrades killed. So fuck off.

If you had ever done this you would know you don't put down men in that situation. Every fucking clerk is a war hero when they get back from the theater of operations. If you were a Tactical Air Controller(There are few of them) then my appologies. BTW: I will fuck off as soon as you suck a dick you condesending shit-bag.

Ignorance. Clutterbuck didn't consider the PLO to be the first or even specific. Patrice Lamumba University in Moscow was the terrorist trainer/exporter.

Not ignorant it's an example of a terrorist organization that started giving the world trouble in the early 70's. I was agreeing with you there that no one really made a serious effort to squash terrorism for decades untill now.

The Northern Irish VOTED democratically to be part of Great Britain and American private monies simply supplemented the KGB's Irish Mayhem budget to dismember democratic people, shoot fathers infront of their children, blow up high street shops, and bring terror. Look at the beam in your own eye.

You mean the Crown loyalists settled there by the Brittish government? Most people outside looking in call that ballot box stuffing. And we all know the Britts never commited any attrocities or arrested and executed people with out cause or trial. Who's making excuses Teabag?

Whining. Majorities of dead americans at the WTC do not reduce the pain of dead Australians and British and a host of other nations. That's why we fight alongside you in Iraq, thicko.

I never said the loss of life of a few Austrailians was not painful to there families or country men. I was pointing out that they were incedental to the THOUSANDS of dead americans. Booger eating moron.

You take every opportunity to bash the war on terror and those fighting it Sir Percy. Well I am gooing to call you on it every time I see you do it so get used to it.



Back on topic: There really is no need to call attention to the fact that men are the majority of casualties, it is understood. The reason the media points out the female service members Killed or wounded is because it is a rarity. The mundane doesn't make the news, the unusual does.

[Sir Percy]

Condesending shit-bag. Teabag. Booger eating moron.

 :lol:  :lol:  :wink:

[dr e]

Okay you two, cut it out.  Stop now and move on.