Hillary: "I'm not a lesbian. I'm not!"

[The Gonzman]

Okay, let me try again.

Prior to Victorian psychology, there was no homosexual identity. Men who had sex with men were engaging in a behavior without an identity _seperate_ from other men. Just like men who masturbate are engaging in an behavior without an identity _seperate_ from other men. There were no homosexuals just like, today, there are no mastursexuals.

The specific behavior of men having sex with other men was stigmatized; it was concieved of as a sinful act _all_ men could be prone to, just like masterbation. Any individual man could engage in every physically intimate behavior short of sexual intimacy with another man and avoid being stigmatized.

And let me try again - Prior to the progressive "enlightenment" there was no name for "the love that dare not speak its name."  One could hardly have a homosexual lifestyle if such a lifestyle were criminalized or subjected to public ostracizing if found out.

Just because the term wasn't coined until the 19th century hardly means the behavior was anything knew.  Just kept quiet.

Then came Victorian psychology that theorized a seperate class of man _attracted_ to other men. In other words, homosexuals could concievably exist _without ever having had sex with a man_. The stigma was on the _attraction_ to another man, not necessarily sexual behavior with another man.

This idea didn't go mainstream till the first part of the last century. Even then it was an upper-class concept. Gradually it filtered down (although, even now, certain classes of men in the west use the functional rather then the psychological definition) till it gained common currency.

Gay men were expected to do their duty to their family (like gay women) and bear children in spite of it.  The aristocracy - as is usual - just had more opportunities to indulge themselves.

As it gained momentum, more and more non-sexual behaviors in men became stigmatized and dropped off the social radar. This is a gradual process, so you can point to any time between the late 1900s and the late 2000s and say 'well men were allowed to show X affection in X context'. That doesn't disprove the movement towards stigmatizing all forms of physical and emotional affection between men as gay.

The situation we're in now is that there are two extreme camps: no affection and highly sexualized affection, with platonic intimacies in the no-man-zone between them. Effectively neutralized.

So, no, I'm not saying men who have sex with other men are somehow more 'intimate' then men who don't. In fact they're suffering EXACTLY the same problem: the sexualization of all intimacy between men.

All of which has largely arised from the shaming and blaming by those great arbiters of what is intimacy and what isn't .... WOMEN!

My main source is Peter Nardi's Men's Friendships. It's a compendium of articles from different researchers analyzing aspects of men's friendships. Also "Picturing Men" is a great visual resource for the  stigmatization of men's physical intimacy over the last century. It's pretty hard to argue with a photographic record.

Three direct responses.

The fact that platonic intimacy exists for men in France is actually an argument for my assertion that intimacy between men is less stigmatized outside of countries that have a Victorian heritage. And that 'touchy-feely' intimacy is neither masculine or feminine, just a mode of expressing affection.

Out of context.  Kissing in France is not necessarily sexual behavior.  It's apples and oranges.

You can mock people for masturbating without there being a mastursexual identity.

Another apples and oranges comparison.  That shaming is done by women:  Female masturbation = empowering; men are shamed because women have to "take care of it themselves."    Male masturbation=desperate; men are shamed because they "Can't get a woman."

Roman's had a very different understanding of 'flaming' then us. It could include men who liked women too much.

Hung around with women, behaved like women, yes, yes...

As flamers are known for effeminate behavior today.

[bachelor tom]

This fellow Peter Nardi seems to know a lot about gay friendships:

Publications: 
Books

Doing Survey Research: A Guide to Quantitative Research Methods, Allyn & Bacon, 2003; Second Edition, 2006

Interpreting Data: A Guide to Understanding Research, Allyn & Bacon, 2006

Gay Masculinities, Editor, Sage Publications, 2000

Gay Men's Friendships: Invincible Communities, University of Chicago Press, 1999  [Ch. 8: "The Politics of Friendship and Gay Social Movements, Communities, and Neighborhoods" reprinted in The Masculinities Reader, Edited by Stephen Whitehead & Frank Barrett, Polity/Blackwell Press, 2001

Social Perspectives in Lesbian & Gay Studies: A Reader, Co-Editor (with Beth Schneider), Routledge, 1998

In Changing Times: Gay Men & Lesbians Encounter HIV/AIDS, Co-Editor (with John Gagnon & Martin Levine), University of Chicago Press, 1997

Growing Up Before Stonewall: Lifestories of Some Gay Men, Co-edited (with David Sanders and Judd Marmor), Routledge, 1994

Men's Friendships, Editor, Sage Publications, 1992

Articles

1.     "Friendship, Sex, and Masculinity" in Michael Kimmel (Ed.), The Sexual Self, Vanderbilt University Press, (2007)

2.     "Sociology at Play, Or Truth in the Pleasant Disguise of Illusion" (2006 Presidential Address to the Pacific Sociological Association), Sociological Perspectives 49:3, pp. 285-295, 2006.

3.     "The Reality of Illusion: The Magic Castle in Hollywood." Contexts 5:1, 2006

4.     "Friendships" in Men and Masculinities: A Social, Cultural, and Historical Encyclopedia, ABC-Clio Press, 2004

5.     "The Mainstreaming of Lesbian and Gay Studies?" in Steven Seidman and Diane Richardson (eds.), Handbook of Lesbian and Gay Studies,  London: Sage, pp. 45-54, 2002

6.     "Resisting Heterosexism & Homophobia: The Gay & Lesbian Movement for Equal Rights in California." In Charles Hohm & James Glynn (eds.), California's Social Problems, Second Edition, Newbury Park, CA: Pine Forge Press. 2002

7.     "Gays and Lesbians in the Media" in Encyclopedia of Communication and Information, Macmillan, 2001

8.     "Friendship" and "Media" in The Encyclopedia of Homosexuality, Volume II: Gay Histories and Cultures, Second Edition, George Haggerty (ed.), NY: Garland Publishing, 2000

9.     "Reclaiming the Importance of Laud Humphreys' Tearoom Trade: Impersonal Sex in Public Places." In William Leap (Ed.), Public Sex/Gay Space, NY: Columbia University Press, 1999

10. "The Globalization of the Gay & Lesbian Socio-Political Movement: Some Observations about Europe with a Focus on Italy," Sociological Perspectives 41:3, 1998, pp. 567-586

11. "Interview with Igor Kon," Sexualities, 1:2, 1998, pp. 229-238

12. "Homophobia in the Courtroom: An Assessment of Biases Against Gay Men and Lesbians in a Multiethnic Sample of Potential Jurors." Co-author with Drury Sherrod, in Gregory Herek (ed.), Stigma & Sexual Orientation: Understanding Prejudice Against Lesbians, Gay Men, and Bisexuals, Newbury Park, CA: Sage, 1998, pp. 24-38

13. "Friends, Lovers, and Families: The Impact of AIDS on Gay and Lesbian Relationships." In M. Levine, P. Nardi, & J. Gagnon, In Changing Times: The Impact of HIV/AIDS on Gay Men and Lesbians, University of Chicago Press, 1997, pp. 55-82

14. "Changing Gay & Lesbian Images in the Media." In James Sears & Walter Williams (eds.), Overcoming Heterosexism & Homophobia: Strategies That Work , NY: Columbia University Press, 1997, pp. 427-442. [Reprinted in The Social Construction of Difference & Inequality: Race, Class, Gender, and Sexuality, edited by Tracy E. Ore, McGraw Hill, 2000 & 2002 editions]

15. "Resisting Heterosexism and Homophobia: The Gay & Lesbian Movement for Equal Rights in California." In Charles Hohm (ed.), California's Social Problems, NY: Longman, 1997

16. "Saying 'I Do' To Broadening the Debate," op-ed article on same-sex marriages, Los Angeles Times, Monday, February 5, 1996

17. "'The Breastplate of Righteousness': Twenty-Five Years After Laud Humphreys' Tearoom Trade: Impersonal Sex in Public Places," Journal of Homosexuality, 30:2, 1995, pp. 3-12

18. "There Are Victories to Be Savored," op-ed article on 25th Anniversary of Stonewall, Los Angeles Times, Sunday, June 12, 1994

19. "Friendship in the Lives of Gay Men and Lesbians," Journal of Social and Personal Relationships,11:2 (May), 1994, pp. 185-199 (with Drury Sherrod)

20. "Gays Should Lean on Justice, Not Science," op-ed article on genetic studies and civil rights, Los Angeles Times, Friday, August 6, 1993

21. "That's What Friends are For: Friends as Family in the Gay & Lesbian Community," in Ken Plummer (ed.), Modern Homosexualities: Fragments of Lesbian & Gay Experience, 1992, London: Routledge

22. "Sex, Friendship, and Gender Roles" in P. Nardi (ed.), Men's Friendships, 1992, Sage

23. "'Seamless Souls:' An Introduction to Men's Friendship" in P. Nardi (ed.), Men's Friendships, 1992, Sage [Reprinted in Writing Our Lives by Rhoda Maxwell, Longman 1999]

24. "The Politics of Gay Men's Friendships," in Michael Kimmel & Michael Messner (eds.), Men's Lives, 2nd (1991) through 6th (2004) Editions, New York: Allyn & Bacon

25. "Gay-Bashing: Violence and Aggression against Gay Men and Lesbians," in Ronald Baenninger (ed.),Targets of Violence and Aggression, Amsterdam: Elsevier/North Holland, 1991 (co-author with Ralph Bolton)

26. "AIDS and Obituaries: The Perpetuation of Stigma in the Press," in Douglas Feldman (ed), Culture and AIDS, New York: Praeger, 1990

27. "Alcoholism," in Encyclopedia of Homosexuality, NY: Garland Press, 1990

28. "The Social Impact of AIDS," California Sociologist 11:1-2, 1988, pp. 3-10

29. Special Issue, Editor -- "Perspectives on the Social Effects of AIDS", California Sociologist 11:2, 1988.

30. "The Social World of Magicians: Gender and Conjuring," Sex Roles, 19:11/12 (December) 1988, pp. 759-770. (Reprinted in M. Baca Zinn, M. Messner, & P. Hondagneau-Sotelo, Through the Prism of Difference , Boston: Allyn & Bacon, 1997)

31. "Power and Control in Families of Alcoholics," Journal of Alcohol and Drug Education 32:3, (Spring) 1987, pp. 14-18

32. "Toward a Social Psychology of Entertainment Magic (Conjuring)" Symbolic Interaction, 7:1, (Spring) 1984, pp. 25-42

33. "Are Two Enough? Are Three Too Many?," article on drinking in the gay community, Christopher Street 7:6, Issue 78, December 1983

34. "Alcohol Abuse and Family Structure." In Family, Self and Society, (D. Gutknecht, et al., eds.), University Press of America, 1983 (reprinted in 2nd Edition, 1985)

35. "Alcoholism and Homosexuality: A Theoretical Perspective," Journal of Homosexuality 7:4, (Summer) 1982, pp.9-25, (Reprinted in Gay and Sober, T. Ziebold and J. Mongeon, eds., Harrington Press, 1985). (Reprinted in Society, Culture, & Drinking Patterns Reexamined, D. Pittman & H. White (eds.), Rutgers Center of Alcohol Studies, 1991)

36. "Alcohol Treatment and the Non-Traditional Family Structures of Gays and Lesbians," Journal of Alcohol and Drug Education 27:2, (Winter) 1982, pp. 83-89

37. "The Children of Alcoholics: A Role Theoretical Perspective," Journal of Social Psychology 115, (December) 1981, pp. 237-245

38. "Education," co-author of Chapter in DeFleur, D'Antonio DeFleur, Sociology: Human Society, Third edition, Chicago: Scott, Foresman, 1981

39. "The Best Little Boy in the World (He Won't Tell)," op-ed article on children of alcoholics, Los Angeles Times, Sunday, March 23, 1980

40. "Moral Socialization: An Empirical Analysis of the Hogan Model," Journal of Moral Education 9:1 (October), 1979, pp.10-16

41. "The Relationship of Moral Maturity and Ethical Attitude," Journal of Personality 47:2 (June), 1979, pp.365-377 (co-author with Richard Tsujimoto)

42. "A Comparison of Kohlberg's and Hogan's Theories of Moral Development," Social Psychology 41:3 (September), 1978, pp. 235-245 (co-author with Richard Tsujimoto)

43. "The Dynamics of Role Acquisition," American Journal of Sociology 80:4 (January), 1975, pp.870-885 (co-author with Russell Thornton)

[dr e]

What is very clear today is the efforts to take away a man's shoulder to shoulder connections with other men.  Male networks are seen as perverted bastions of power that were used as a club to beat women into submission and give out only the best to other men who were part of the "old boy network."  Men's clubs are basically illegal while women's clubs are much more commonplace.  Men connecting with other men is discouraged and shamed.  Often it is labelled "gay" as if when men become close to one another it is forbidden.  All the while gay behavior is gaining acceptance as normal.  go figure

[The Gonzman]

It's the equation of male friendship as "gay."

By women who are threatened by male friendship, especially since men express it differently.  They fear what they do not understand.

[typhonblue]

This fellow Peter Nardi seems to know a lot about gay friendships:

The book, Men's Friendships, did not center on gay men's frienships, but covered a cross-section of articles on men's frienships, both historical and from other cultures.

[dr e]

It's the equation of male friendship as "gay."

By women who are threatened by male friendship, especially since men express it differently.  They fear what they do not understand.

It's more than just the women Gonz.  It's the men also.  I would like to hear from each man on this thread  about his reaction to the men's movement in the 1990's where men were meeting and talking about their painful emotional issues.  At the time did you subscribe to the "men going into the woods and beating drums" shaming that the media dished out? Did you laugh about those men and make fun of them?  Were you one of the ones who supported male intimacy?  If so, how?  I am guessing that very few on this board back in the 90's were supportive towards these men.  I would love to hear that I am wrong.

The sad fact is that it is not just women who are threatened by male friendship.m  It is many of the men also.

[Lazurite]

It's the equation of male friendship as "gay."

By women who are threatened by male friendship, especially since men express it differently.  They fear what they do not understand.

It's more than just the women Gonz.  It's the men also.  I would like to hear from each man on this thread  about his reaction to the men's movement in the 1990's where men were meeting and talking about their painful emotional issues.  At the time did you subscribe to the "men going into the woods and beating drums" shaming that the media dished out? Did you laugh about those men and make fun of them?  Were you one of the ones who supported male intimacy?  If so, how?  I am guessing that very few on this board back in the 90's were supportive towards these men.  I would love to hear that I am wrong.

The sad fact is that it is not just women who are threatened by male friendship.m  It is many of the men also.

I was a bit young when drumming circles were at the height of their popularity, but I do remember them.  I could certainly understand the need to have a gathering like that, but I thought they emphasized the primitive, caveman ideal of masculinity overmuch.  I certainly wouldn't have felt welcome in one, which was the flaw I saw in them more than the basic fact of having them.

[typhonblue]

I was a bit young when drumming circles were at the height of their popularity, but I do remember them.  I could certainly understand the need to have a gathering like that, but I thought they emphasized the primitive, caveman ideal of masculinity overmuch.  I certainly wouldn't have felt welcome in one, which was the flaw I saw in them more than the basic fact of having them.

How much of your impression was accurate and how much was it a reflection of media bias?

[Lazurite]

I was a bit young when drumming circles were at the height of their popularity, but I do remember them.  I could certainly understand the need to have a gathering like that, but I thought they emphasized the primitive, caveman ideal of masculinity overmuch.  I certainly wouldn't have felt welcome in one, which was the flaw I saw in them more than the basic fact of having them.

How much of your impression was accurate and how much was it a reflection of media bias?

I can't say.  I live in the middle of nowhere, even if I were old enough when drumming circles were popular to have gone to one, the nearest city that's likely to have had one is three hours' drive away.  I've never been to one myself, nor do I personally know anyone who has, so I don't have a properly informed opinion on the matter.  It's entirely possible that what I perceived then as idealizing old male stereotypes was simply an aesthetic, and I would've been quite comfortable in such a group.

[dr e]

Lazurite - It is understandable that you would not have a clear idea of what went on in those groups of men.  Your only source of information was the mainstream media which did its best to portray the image of men beating drums and playing caveman etc.  The truth is that those few years when that era was going on there were huge breakthroughs for these men in learning to relate to other men in a way that our culture did not endorse.  I know because I was one of them.  It was heartbreaking to see something as positive and life-giving get shamed by an adolescent media that was threatened by what they saw.  They have no excuse.  Many of them attended these sessions and would fail to report what was important about the events and would focus on something extraneous and make fun of it.  It was a sad day. I guess you can't expect 5th grade work from a 2nd grader.  What went on at those gatherings would make any MRA proud. Many of the leaders around the country of MRA's are veterans of banging drums in the woods.  It was a time when men could be close to each other and be proud of being a man.

I was a bit young when drumming circles were at the height of their popularity, but I do remember them.  I could certainly understand the need to have a gathering like that, but I thought they emphasized the primitive, caveman ideal of masculinity overmuch.  I certainly wouldn't have felt welcome in one, which was the flaw I saw in them more than the basic fact of having them.

How much of your impression was accurate and how much was it a reflection of media bias?

I can't say.  I live in the middle of nowhere, even if I were old enough when drumming circles were popular to have gone to one, the nearest city that's likely to have had one is three hours' drive away.  I've never been to one myself, nor do I personally know anyone who has, so I don't have a properly informed opinion on the matter.  It's entirely possible that what I perceived then as idealizing old male stereotypes was simply an aesthetic, and I would've been quite comfortable in such a group.

[Peter]

The Bible seem so terriby heteronormative (Wikipedia: Heteronormative).

It is an incredibe term, designed to negate everything we learn from biology about sexuality and reproduction.

Wikipedia:

Cathy J. Cohen defines heteronormativity as the practices and institutions "that legitimize and privilege heterosexuality and heterosexual relationships as fundamental and "natural" within society" (2005: 24). Her work emphasizes the importance of sexuality as implicated in broader structures of power, intersecting with and inseparable from race, gender, and class oppression. She points to the examples of single mothers on welfare (particularly women of color) and sex workers, who may be heterosexual, but are not heteronormative, and thus not perceived as "normal, moral, or worthy of state support" or legitimation (2005: 26).

Heteronormativity has been used in the exploration and critique of the traditional norms of sex, gender identity, gender roles and sexuality, and of the social implications of those institutions. It is descriptive of a dichotomous system of categorization that directly links social behavior and self-identity with one's genitalia. That is to say (among other things) that, because there are strictly defined concepts of maleness and femaleness, there are similarly expected behaviors for both males and females.


Opinion Journal
http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110006367

Pink vs. Green
You may remember her from such movies as "A Low Down Dirty Shame" and "Woo." Call Jada Pinkett Smith's latest production "Heteronormative Hell." The Harvard Crimson reports the actress appeared on campus recently as part of the 20th annual Cultural Rhythms show, and what she had to say was quite inflammatory:

    "Women, you can have it all--a loving man, devoted husband, loving children, a fabulous career," she said. "They say you gotta choose. Nah, nah, nah. We are a new generation of women. We got to set a new standard of rules around here. You can do whatever it is you want. All you have to do is want it."

    "To my men, open your mind, open your eyes to new ideas. Be open," she added.

This didn't quite provoke fainting spells, like Larry Summers's recent remarks, but the Crimson reports that "some students were offended" and that "the Bisexual, Gay, Lesbian, Transgender, and Supporters Alliance (BGLTSA) and the Harvard Foundation for Intercultural and Race Relations have begun working together to increase sensitivity toward issues of sexuality at Harvard."


http://www.geocities.com/rational_argumentator/heteronormative.html

Pinkett Smith's thought crime? She assumed that women might want husbands: "Women, you can have it all-a loving man

...

Traditional marriage, you see, is hopelessly heteronormative. It is based on the realization that heterosexuality is overwhelmingly predominant in most human societies and the inconvenient fact that sex between men and women often creates children. Marriage has functioned as a mechanism for channeling this sexuality into such socially productive purposes as rearing the next generation.



----

Some try to invent scientifically sounding terms to scare the wits out of mere mortals.

[The Gonzman]

It's the equation of male friendship as "gay."

By women who are threatened by male friendship, especially since men express it differently.  They fear what they do not understand.

It's more than just the women Gonz.  It's the men also.  I would like to hear from each man on this thread  about his reaction to the men's movement in the 1990's where men were meeting and talking about their painful emotional issues.  At the time did you subscribe to the "men going into the woods and beating drums" shaming that the media dished out? Did you laugh about those men and make fun of them?  Were you one of the ones who supported male intimacy?  If so, how?  I am guessing that very few on this board back in the 90's were supportive towards these men.  I would love to hear that I am wrong.

The sad fact is that it is not just women who are threatened by male friendship.m  It is many of the men also.

Actually, I was doing drum circles long before that...

[dr e]

What were you doing?

[The Gonzman]

Oh, hell, man-I was in the Boy Scouts when it was still an all-boy thing.  I went to an all-boys school for several years.  I was doing little league before the girls infested it. Paperboys were boys - girls need not apply.

We had our male-bonding.  Initiations before namby-pambyness took over with the coming of the estrogen brigade, before the hanging of lace everywhere, before we were nagged to "be nice" and "leave the seat down."

The systematic destruction of male-only spaces in recent decades, and the shaming, and veiled accusations of unsavouriness promoted by feminists is really fairly recent.  There are men I only see on occasion when I go back east that I still have a bond of brotherhood with from those shared experiences.

Most guys under 40 - they have lost out on that.  They never knew any version of it, even a watered down version.  And when you don't remember it - it might as well have been centuries ago.

I hate feminists for that, if nothing else.  And I will never forgive them for it.

[dr e]

Gonz - What was your take at the time on the men's gatherings of the 90's?